But after a point you are committed; Shackleton's perseverance was merely the result of a collapse of alternatives. His experience seems more closely aligned with Lovell's on Apollo 13. Armstrong and Aldrin are more in the league of Magellan or Columbus.Chuck wrote:the difference week boldness and timidity is but one of degree, as is that between judgement and foolishness, perserverence and flakiness. All qualities are a matter of degree. But I think Shackleton has exhibited more of the qualities, and in greater degrees, against greater and more prolonged adversities, while shoulder more responsibility for lives of more men, than any others yet nominated, and mostly by a large margin.
M/S Explorer
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Werner
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If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.
-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)
-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)
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Werner wrote: But after a point you are committed; Shackleton's perseverance was merely the result of a collapse of alternatives. His experience seems more closely aligned with Lovell's on Apollo 13. Armstrong and Aldrin are more in the league of Magellan or Columbus.
For scientific leadership, give me Scott, for swift and efficient travel, Amundsen. But when you are in a hopeless situation, when you are seeing no way out, get down on your knees and pray for Shackleton. Incomparable in adversity, he was the miracle worker who would save your life against all the odds and long after your number was up. The greatest leader that ever came on God's earth, bar none."
Sir Raymond Priestley
Member of the Nimrod expedition 1907-1909
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Werner wrote:But after a point you are committed; Shackleton's perseverance was merely the result of a collapse of alternatives. His experience seems more closely aligned with Lovell's on Apollo 13. Armstrong and Aldrin are more in the league of Magellan or Columbus.Chuck wrote:the difference week boldness and timidity is but one of degree, as is that between judgement and foolishness, perserverence and flakiness. All qualities are a matter of degree. But I think Shackleton has exhibited more of the qualities, and in greater degrees, against greater and more prolonged adversities, while shoulder more responsibility for lives of more men, than any others yet nominated, and mostly by a large margin.
He didn't have to go at all. This was not his first expedition. His name would not be forgotten if he didn't go. But this was his expedition. He found backing for it, he found finance for it, he provided the leadership for it. He was the captain at the visionary stage. Nor was he the heedless egoist. When the war of 1914 broke out, he placed the entire resource of his expedition at the command of the Admiralty. Winston Churchill personally telegraphed him to tell him to go ahead with the expedition.
There were many apparent alternatives over the 2 years. But when it is in his power to choose, he consistently picked the right ones, even when the right ones are on the surface impossible. He commanded 28 men. Despite the fact that most of them would in our world be regarded as intractable egoists and inveterate individualists, and some of them very experienced Antarctic explorers in their own right, their faith in his command never wavered. Long after all sane man would have given up and dove head first into the nearest ice crevice, his men remained supremely confident that adversities will not overcome them because Shackleton is with them. He was the captain when in the greatest adversity.
A captain of men at the onset, and a captain of men in the greatest adversity, that is what distinguish a great explorer from the pilot, or passenger, or a swift handed carpenter who stemmed a leak, aboard a ship of exploration. Shackleton had it, Erikson had it, Magellan had it, it may be politically incorrect to say it, and their other acts are reprehensible, but Cortez and Pizzaro had this. Columbus, not in so high a degree.
When Magellan fell, even his enemies, men he had demoted and degraded, lamented that their light and their mirror is gone. Unlikely will you find this magnitude of greatness from Yuri Grigarin, Chuck Yeager, or Neil Armstrong.
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Werner
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So is the Beast. Perhaps Chuck is one with it?Timmy C wrote:Anon is legion.Anonymous wrote: What type do I strike you as?
- And the beast shall be made legion. Its numbers shall be increased a thousand thousand fold. The din of a million keyboards like unto a great storm shall cover the earth, and the followers of Mammon shall tremble.
(Red Letter Edition)
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.
-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)
-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)
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kennylibben
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JWintjes
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JWintjes
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Again, to my shocking astonishment, I find myself in agreement with Chuck.Anonymous wrote:
A captain of men at the onset, and a captain of men in the greatest adversity, that is what distinguish a great explorer from the pilot, or passenger, or a swift handed carpenter who stemmed a leak, aboard a ship of exploration. Shackleton had it, Erikson had it, Magellan had it, it may be politically incorrect to say it, and their other acts are reprehensible, but Cortez and Pizzaro had this. Columbus, not in so high a degree.
When Magellan fell, even his enemies, men he had demoted and degraded, lamented that their light and their mirror is gone. Unlikely will you find this magnitude of greatness from Yuri Grigarin, Chuck Yeager, or Neil Armstrong.
Shackleton is the triumph of willpower and leadership in the face of odds that on the face of it are impossible; Magellan would seem to me to be an excellent comparison.
Jorit
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Mark Petersen
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Mark Petersen wrote:In terms of open ocean small boat voyages Shackleton's is right up there with Bligh's to Timor
Despite the fact that it has become fashionable in 20th century to use the latest technology to set ego boosting ocean crossing records, some records that bespeak of true accomplishments have never been broken.
Amongst them is Bligh's trip across Polynesia in an open cutter, severely overloaded, and with minimal provision. No one in the 230 years since has succeeded in navigating a longer ocean trip in a open boat.
Hollywood has squandered miles of celluloid on Fletcher Christian and the Mutiny. But Bligh's subsequent trip from the Bounty to Timor is an epic of human leadership, will, and endurance of all together different proportion.
An accurate telling of Bligh's trip would sink all of Hollywood's romantic notion of oppressed crew rising against official tyranny.
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JWintjes wrote:Funny you think so - I would have thought of Chuck to be the guy camping outside the shop for a week...kennylibben wrote: The kind that just takes the free phone that comes with the plan...
...nothing wrong with that tho, thats what i do!
Jorit
I waited until the thing was out for 2 weeks so I didn't have to camp out at the store for a week.
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Werner
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Fortunately for all concerned, ranking the prowess of explorers is in the realm of opinion. For opinion's sake I frequently find myself aligned with certain liberals regarding my opinion of music. That does not bother me. I am sure Jorit can protect his sense of self-esteem by thinking along these lines about Chuck and Shackleton.
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.
-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)
-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)
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JWintjes
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But only barely, Werner. Only barely...Werner wrote:Fortunately for all concerned, ranking the prowess of explorers is in the realm of opinion. For opinion's sake I frequently find myself aligned with certain liberals regarding my opinion of music. That does not bother me. I am sure Jorit can protect his sense of self-esteem by thinking along these lines about Chuck and Shackleton.
Jorit
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bengtsson
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I couldn't agree more about the difference between real feats of courage and skill versus the phoney 20th century ego trips.Anonymous wrote:Mark Petersen wrote:In terms of open ocean small boat voyages Shackleton's is right up there with Bligh's to Timor
Despite the fact that it has become fashionable in 20th century to use the latest technology to set ego boosting ocean crossing records, some records that bespeak of true accomplishments have never been broken.
Amongst them is Bligh's trip across Polynesia in an open cutter, severely overloaded, and with minimal provision. No one in the 230 years since has succeeded in navigating a longer ocean trip in a open boat.
Hollywood has squandered miles of celluloid on Fletcher Christian and the Mutiny. But Bligh's subsequent trip from the Bounty to Timor is an epic of human leadership, will, and endurance of all together different proportion.
An accurate telling of Bligh's trip would sink all of Hollywood's romantic notion of oppressed crew rising against official tyranny.
Let's not forget the earlier voyage Lieutenant Bulkeley of the HMS Wager part of Anson's 1741 voyage to raid on the pacific coast of South America. Wager was driven ashore and wrecked on a barren island off the coast of Chile. After using what small stores they could salvage, the men faced starvation. The ship's Lieutenant Bulkeley chose to set out with thirty men in the ships 50 foot longboat, which they named the Speedwell. They navigated their boat from the island through the straights of Magellan and all the way to the mouth of the La Plata on Jan. 28 1742. A voyage of 2,500 miles. It took Captain Bligh to out do Lieutenant Bulkeley, but it does tell what the officers of the Royal Navy were made of in those days.
Bob B.
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Werner
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Chuck wrote:Werner wrote:F. For opinion's sake I frequently find myself aligned with certain liberals regarding my opinion of music. .
Werner listens to Joan Biaz? His taste is even worse than I had feared!
Sorry, couldn't resist.
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.
-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)
-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)