Help to preserve highly significant archaeological site

[JWintjes]

As it came up in another thread I thought I might just as well give it a separate topic.

I realize that this is not "History & Technology" proper, but I put it here and not in one of the OT forums because this one is visible to everyone. If it's inappropriate, would then one of the mods be so kind and remove it.

Now, what's it all about?

The short story is that the site of the temple of Artemis, an eminently important archaeological site in downtown Athens, is in grave danger of being levelled and commercially developed. If you think that this is rather unsmart, jump the bandwagon here:

http://www.artemisagrotera.org/en/petition.asp

More information can be found here:

http://www.artemisagrotera.org/en/

and here:

http://www.helleniccomserve.com/artemis ... asave.html

Jorit

[chuck]

It might be worth while to point out that, dear as anything Greek might be to so many people's hearts, that given the volume of historical record and archaeological evidence available on the Greeks, do money and efforts spent on preserving one single Greek site really promise to yield as much incremental understanding as the same amount of money and effort spent on more archaeological sites of currently more obscure origins?

Knowing one more thing about the rite of Artemis would undoubted delight the hearts of classicist. But would it really have as even a tiny fraction of big picture value as, for example, finding the Northward extent of Hittite influence?

[Werner]

You cannot yet know those things which are unknown. Destroying history is erasing a future opportunity to understand ourselves.

Perhaps future technologies would make this the most profitable site of it's kind in the world. We cannot know. Furthermore, I think we all acknowledge the incomplete nature of history in all it's forms.

One hundred years ago the world was in a "dinosaur frenzy". Dynamite was used to release bones from their final rest, and one scientist would sabotage his competitor's work. Completely overlooked in this frenzy were the very small traces associated with the great bones. It was my generation, in the 1980s and 1990s that discovered odd things associated with the matrix around a fossil dinosaur: scutes, scales, feathers, quills, pebbly inclusions and so on. So, in the greed of the time and the hubris that made the earlier scientists certain of their approach, we lost an impressive body of information which completely reformed the way we look at these creatures and the lives they lived.

And we still know next to nothing. Only a fool would believe otherwise about our ancients, dinosaurs, or the climate.

[chuck]

You cannot yet know those things which are unknown. Destroying history is erasing a future opportunity to understand ourselves.

Fine. You have a finite amount of money, effort, and PR capital with which to battle the poachers, looters, and developers. You can't afford to spend it all at once on everything that could conceivably yield something.

[Werner]

I read somewhere that all the constructions of humanity would easily fit into Texas. Surely Athens doesn't require a Starbucks or McDonalds on that particular plot of land.

[chuck]

I read somewhere that all the constructions of humanity would easily fit into Texas. Surely Athens doesn't require a Starbucks or McDonalds on that particular plot of land.

A Starbucks or McDonalds on that spot is expected to be able to yield real, objective, quantifiable economic profit. The developer evidently chose that spot because he judge the feasibility of his development or his potential profit to be less if the same capital is invested elsewhere. Reasonably you should compensate the developer for causing him to loose that profit. Is that particular compensation the best use of conservational resources you have? Conservation like everything else needs an return on investment analysis.

[Werner]

Chuck, you capitalist!

[kennylibben]

I suppose Chuck, you feel the Alamo should be razed for a strip club?


I signed, and passed it on to our Classics department at the college.

[JWintjes]

First of all, thanks to Sean and Kenny for signing.

As for Chuck's comment, I think you're conflating two quite different things.

There is the issue of available resources. If I only have the money for either the Parthenon or any other Athenian temple, I'll spend it on the Parthenon. I would even go so far as to agree with you that if I were forced to chose between digging up the umpteenth Roman military post, interesting as it is, and, say, Karkemish, I'd probably chose the latter (provided they finally start clearing the mines there... ).

But in this particular case quite a different thing is at stake. This is actually not about money - with proper political backing there would be money available to support this site. The problem here is fundamentally about people trying to gain short-term profits out of a site that has a high property value because it's squarely in downtown Athens. As far as the thinking behind it goes, it's pretty similar to someone trying to pull down the Colosseum because you could make tons of money there with a guarded parking lot. The site is indeed of great importance, but it's not the site alone. It's fighting against a policy of profiteering that would sell the Parthenon for profit.

Incidentally, a similar fight is currently going on about the diholkos, the ancient slipway through the Corinthian Isthmus which allowed ships to be pulled from one side to the other. Here again it's about short-sighted profiteering and real estate development. The difference is that the diholkos has little in the way of profile outside the academic world - which this site in downtown Athens has.

Jorit

[chuck]

I suppose Chuck, you feel the Alamo should be razed for a strip club?

If someone who currently owns the plot of land Alamo sits on wants to develop the Alamo mission into a strip club, and running a strip club there does not harm any of the legally protected interests of his neighbors, then I think it is the obligation of those who seeks to protect Alamo from such a use to compensate the owner for the profits lost.

[Werner]

If someone who currently owns the plot of land Alamo sits on wants to develop the Alamo mission into a strip club, and running a strip club there does not harm any of the legally protected interests of his neighbors, then I think it is the obligation of those who seeks to protect Alamo from such a use to compensate the owner for the profits lost.

Better not move to Connecticut. Your buddy Clinton's Supreme Court Justices ruled that the State could take property for any purpose and determine the compensation (if any) on it's own.

A few Republicans tried to use the new rules on Mr. Justice Souter's house, but I don't know the outcome.

[Sean Hert]

A few Republicans tried to use the new rules on Mr. Justice Souter's house, but I don't know the outcome.

Oh, they got shot down pretty handedly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Liberty_Hotel

[chuck]

Better not move to Connecticut. Your buddy Clinton's Supreme Court Justices ruled that the State could take property for any purpose and determine the compensation (if any) on it's own.

A few Republicans tried to use the new rules on Mr. Justice Souter's house, but I don't know the outcome.

Check your facts again. Clinton didn't nominate Mr. Souter to the Supreme Court. 3 of the 5 Justices who voted for that case had been appointed by Republican Presidents.

[HMAS]

I'll sign up & pass it onto some more people of Greek extraction.

Quote 1 Incidentally, a similar fight is currently going on about the diholkos

Site of the worlds first railway? as ships were on carts with "guiding slots" in the road it fits the defination of a railway.
get the railway mobs on side as well to help, before it all gets developed.

Quote 2 If someone who currently owns the plot of land Alamo sits on wants to develop (snipped) then I think it is the obligation of those who seeks to protect Alamo from such a use to compensate the owner for the profits lost.

Compensation for Profits lost is a bad way of doing things, bad management etc lack of patronage, business closes down itself. best to declare the site as a "Heritage site" you can develop within certain guidelines set by the authorities, OK it's not perfect, but generally it tends to work.
BTW is the Alamo up for sale? I hear the Mexicans would like to erect 20 storey housing units there.