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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:48 pm 
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Sauragnmon wrote:
I would assume that the second image is one of Musashi, judging from the lack of closed 25mm mounts along the broadside, in front of the 12.7cm guns?


Nope, the fact that there are both the domed enclosed 12.7 cm mounts and open 12.7cm mounts shows it's the Yamato. Yamato received this upgrade around April 1944. Musashi had received barbettes for additional 12.7 cm mounts at about the same time, but she never received the mounts themselves.

Yamato only received all her enclosed broad side 25mm mounts in Jan 1945. She didn't have all the outboard mounts during Leyte.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:02 pm 
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Thanks again Chuck, all makes sence now about the search light directors.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:55 am 
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I just received my copy of Imperial Japanese Battleship Yamato Super Illustration from Pacific Front Hobbies:
http://www.pacificfront.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=3574

Imagine my surprise when I opened the book and found it was in Japanese and ENGLISH!!! Like most here, I have several of the Gakken books and always wished I could get a translation of the text. The Super Illustration book is 112 pages of detailed drawings, all with English text. The book has 3 fold outs at 1/500 scale (original, first upgrade, final configuration) and a huge amount of detail.

Highly recommended.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 6:09 pm 
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Location: Xiaoshan, China, home of the "oldest" boat
For anyone interested in the Ocean Voyage fittings, I was advised after a month of silence that the factory has granted an exclusive within Asia to their Japanese distributor so he cannot provide the fittings to me as first offered. Bummer! :censored_2: :mad_1:

I've asked for the dealer's contact info & will post details once I hear back.

For you guys across the pond, you may try Don @ Loyalhanna since he's interested in carrying their fittings along with the kits he just took on.

Chuck

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:54 pm 
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Hello all. New to this site, and want to post a question: I attended a regional IPMS contest recently, and the resident "expert" on naval model warships- a JUDGE - stated to me that on YAMATO's last mission, she had her decks painted "flat jet black." I have to admit I did a double-take on this, as I have studied YAMATO as both an avid IJN fan, modeler and professional museum naval ship historian/curator. I had NEVER heard of this before! He stated his source was "studying the photos taken from US naval aircraft shot during her final sortie- its abvious her her decks are far too dark to be natural wood decking....and the recent Japanese film on YAMATO's last sortie shows her with dark or black painted decks."

OK.
:woo_hoo:

For the sake of being objective, I won't name any names, nor the regional contest I was at...

I can't really swallow this, and after getting home I immediately revisted all my voluminous notes, references and both Japanese/American primary sources-including a renewed scrutiny of those photos from YAMATO's ill-fated last mission to Okinawa. I do not have a copy of the Japanese language movie (now out on DVD) which documents YAMATO's last mission, so anyone who has seen the movie or has a copy, PLEASE confirm or refute that the Japanese film shows her with Dark colored/Black decks. I just don't buy it. Anyone here want to comment?

FYI, I am fully appraised of, and aware, of the photographic qualities of the various IJN standard warship grey, and how it differed from one naval aresenal to another; As well as how this paint can make a ship in a period B/W photo appear far darker than they really were. I believe that YAMATO was last painted in KURE GREY, one of the darker shades but not the darkest. According to John Snyder's "Imperial Japanese Navy Greys" publication, YAMATO never wore any other naval arsenal color, from commissioning to final loss, other than KURE GREY. Again, comments welcome either confirming or repudiating John Snyder's findings (and to clarify, John Snyder was not the "EXPERT JUDGE" opining on YAMATO having black decks).

Thanks for your interest and replies. :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:36 pm 
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For 4/45, Yamato's deck was not painted - the Hinoki cypress color had faded naturally to a very dark grey. There is a monograph about it on this site:

http://watakan.world.coocan.jp/eng/yamato/index.html

Hinoki cypress is a "soft" wood and fades through the plank - you cannot holystone it like you can hard woods. In any event, the IJN was trying to camouflage its BBs, not make them stick out like sore thumbs for US recon planes. Also, I think its doubtful Yamato ever had its deck replaced throughout its career, which took place entirely while Japan was at war. Increasing numbers of Japanese modelers are painting their kits this way, but it has yet to catch on here, due to the lack of documentation. The "yellow" color is correct for new Hinoki cypress, but was probably already "greyish" even before Yamato was commissioned in the winter of 1941. BTW, for Leyte, Yamato and Musashi's decks were darkened with a non-permanent mixture of soot and chemicals which had to be slopped on while in transit. You can see the nature of the work in aerial photos.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:24 am 
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There are numerous sources that cite the fact that both Yamato and Musashi had their decks stained--not painted--black for the Sho-go operation (Leyte Gulf). This was accomplished using a mix of funnel soot and some sort of solvent. Sources also show that Yamato's decks were still stained black at the time of the Ten-go (Okinawa) operation.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:20 am 
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so if the deck went to a grey colour, what colour is closest? because i have some repainting to do!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:35 am 
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John and I have something of a difference of opinion on this subject. The "stain" that was applied at Leyte was non-permanent. You can see the way it was slopped around with swabs. The accounts I've read say it had to be reapplied several times before Yamato reached San Bernadino Straight. It looks very different from the solid dark color shown in the famous 4/45 picture. For Ten-go, Yamato was no longer trying to stay hidden and there would have been no point to apply additional stain, even if the deck color itself was not already the appropriate shade. Try using Tamiya dark ocean grey as a starter color. Or, just look at any wood fence that's been out in the rain for a few years. In 4/45, Yamato did carry a series of white heading markers along the deck edges that had originally been applied for Leyte. Western modelers rarely attempt to show them, even though they are well documented in Skulski and other places.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:57 am 
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I've seen no independent corroboration for the notion that decks made from Japanese cypress naturally darken to a dark gray color. Nagato was planked with the same cypress as the Yamato, and photos of that ship's for'c'stle taken in 1938, when the deck is 17 years old, does not suggest the wood has turned very dark.

I understand the stain that darkened Yamato's deck during the Leyte Gulf campaign was made from boiler soot.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:21 am 
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Yoshida Mitsuru, an ensign abord Yamato on her final mission, specfically mentions darklening the deck with boiler soot in the very eloquent book, "Requeim for Battleship Yamato".


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:43 am 
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Having recently read the Requiem, I do not remember this information. Could you cite a page number?

I do remember that he said the Yamato was painted 'Silver Gray', which I have heard from other sources as well, and the shot of the bow towards the beginning of the movie had a shimmering quality, perhaps due to reflection from the water below, however the rest of the ship for the rest of the movie was a more conventional gray. I have never heard of the color 'silver gray' in reference to any other Japanese warship. I don't know how accurate this information is.

As for the decks in the movie (which I own) the deck was not black but a typical wood tone. Actually the deck was made to match very closely the color and consistency of the deck of the Mikasa, which also (currently) has a Hinoki Cypress weather deck. Others have pointed out that the Mikasa's deck is not regularly holystoned, (BTW they show the crew swabbing the deck in the movie, which may or may not be inaccurate) but there was no black stain on the deck in the movie.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:06 am 
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I've never heard that Yamato was ever painted in anything other than Kure gray. There is some debate over whether Musashi was re-painted with British paint stock captured in Singapore just prior to Leyte gulf. The suggestion being her color, unusually light for a IJN ship, made her stand out and caused her to bear the brunt of US carrier aircraft attack. But I've not seen that opinion echoed in any credible source.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:11 am 
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I have flipped thru the first half of book & admittedly, I haven't found the passage. I will though :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:43 pm 
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I also finished reading the book recently I don’t recall reading about chemicals and soot used to darken the deck , I skimmed it one more time and on page 93 I found something like this weathered decks with “ jet black color” what ever used on those decks was black for sure, what was used to make them darker no idea here, I'm open to suggestions :big_grin:


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:49 am 
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That's the passage. Japanese sources have continually reported funnel soot as the darkening agent. Thx, Jose.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:24 am 
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funnel soot would make an ideal temporary darkening agent for a navy that is short on every resource.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:22 pm 
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jet black color = soot interesting !, I'll make sure of using black to weather the deck up to some extent :big_grin: better hold my horses there I'm thinking about the Yammi and I haven't even finished Maya yet :lol_1:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:05 pm 
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Gentlemen:

I seem to have touched off quit the debate! :big_grin:

before we all put our pints of beer down on the floor and start throwing bar stools across the room, I would like to summarize what (I) understand the crucial points to be thus far:

1. YAMATO most probably- 90% certainty- had her decks covered in a TEMPORARY "funnel-soot wash/temporary stain" concoction for Operation SHO-GO, the invasion of Leyte Gulf- October 1944;
2. Said "funnel soot wash or temporary stain" was not very weather resistant, and had to be re-applied several times during her dash to the Leyte Gulf area in October of 1944;
3. YAMATO was berthed/drydocked after the end of the LEYTE GULF operations in November-January 1945 (exact time period??) to affect repairs from damage incurred during her last sortie at Leyte, where all repairs were made AND upgrading of her AA Batteries was carried out- a significant yard period in and out of drydock.
4. It is safe to "assume,' that YAMATO received during this yard period at least perfunctory new touch-up paint work at KURE Naval Base, and all newly installed enclosed AA mounts and other new equipment/alterations had these areas repainted as well. Since a lot of this work enatiled the main deck amidships areas, the decks would have been well trodden, and cleaned prior to and after newly installed AA positions were in place.
5. In my experience as a naval historian and active warship restoration specialist (including yard periods for historic ships), I have NEVER heard of a major overhaul/alteration period being done where decks were not deliberately cleaned/restained and/or new facilities/alterations painted to match the latest camouflage measure/current paint standards that the ship was painted in (in this case, KURE GREY).
5. There is no yard record mentioning the reapplication of the "funnel soot wash or temporary stain"
6. YAMATO has no survivor record of this stain be REAPPLIED BEFORE OR DURING Operation TEN-ICHI-GO, the last ditch sortie to oppose and stop the invasion of Okinawa in April of 1945. Some survivor accounts "RECALL" the decks being a stained color at the time of her loss- but do NOT recall it being specifically reapplied prior to the okinawa suicide dash. (This is correct from what I can discern here on the discussion board....It is my opinion that these "Recollections" of a stained deck during her last sortie are memories from 30-50 yrs ago where, understandably, one air engaement with USN carrier planes is confused/transposed on another similar action (Leyte and Okinawa). This VERY OFTEN happens with veterans- they do not intentionally misdirect or decieve, but jumble memories/reflections/time periods together.)
7. General IJN practice was to NOT stain or paint natural wooden decking on battleships- the Leyte Gulf "soot stain" being a notable and as far as I know, temporary exception to this rule. Again, all agree that such stain was not permanent, and had to be re-applied several times just in the voyage leading up to the actual Leyte Gulf battles.
8. Photographic evidence of YAMATO's last sortie is in B/W photography only- guessing as to the actual or correct SHADES of grey can be very misleading and more often than not lead to erroneous conclusions. The effects of light, angle, shutter speed of the camera, type of film, exposure times, developing processes, etc. etc. are all factors which affect the exposure/and or relative "clarity" of a given B/W image. Such factors are unknown to researchers today, and leave the possible permutations of what color is actually a particular, known color open to dispute WITHOUT INDEPENDENT DOCUMENTATION.
9. Due to all these "what ifs" and the general inaccuracy of interpreting B/W photography as well as the blurred and/or confused memories of only a couple of survivors' statements (I wonder if a majority of other survivors recall natural wood decks???), it is possible to - AT THIS POINT IN TIME GIVEN THE HISTORICAL RECORD- to paint YAMATO with natural hinoki cypress decking, OR a dark grey "soot stained" deck. I tend to believe the former is the best choice.

10. Follow-Up Points for consideration:
A.) The actual color of well seasoned Japanese hinoki cypress wood decking is considerably darker than what most modelers portray in their work. See previous image of predreadnought MIKASA's natural wood decking forwarded by DOUG HALLET immediately above this post under the discussion name "Yamato Camouflage- what the ????" (Thanks, Doug! :thumbs_up_1: ) - its actually darker than the surrounding (though faded) grey paintwork (anyone knowwhat color MIKASA is currently painted in? Seems too light to be KURE GREY). This would be considerably enhanced in a B/W photo using period film and cameras.
B.) Many sources- including FUKUI, a chief constructor of the IJN- reported that towards the end of the war, most IJN grey paints tended to be somewhat more "faded" or "silvery tinted" in appearance- thus allowing for natural wood hinoki decking to again appear darker than the surrounding paintwork on a IJN warship viewed in a period B/W photo.
C.) There is no evidence to suggest that the currently available B/W photos of YAMATO show her in action with DRY decks- for every actual hit, there were at least five "near misses' or bomb splashes close enough to drench the BB's decks and surrounding structures with water, making decks appear darker than normally would be perceived.

I intend on painting my YAMATO in natural wood colors which are closer to a grey than a "wood" color, unless someone can show me that each point above is somehow unreasonable or in error.

I would like to thank everyone who have opined and contributed to this discussion! :wave_1:


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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:39 pm 
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Ok... question, re - Broadside AA. Yamato's upper 12.7cm were open, Musashi closed, was Musashi then to have all twelve as enclosed, had her fit been completed? Was this then to be the standard between the two, with both only receiving a partial refit - Yamato with the lower deck enclosed, Musashi with upper enclosed and no lower deck guns?

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