The Rape of Nanking

[Werner]

I urge everyone with cable or satellite television access to watch Cinemax' presentation Nanking. Since it is in the words of the survivors, victims, and Europeans who shielded as many as they could, it is especially moving.

Let's hope the locusts of genocidal war will rest for a while.

[Gerarddm]

The book was horrifying. IIRC the author later committed suicide.

[Werner]

Yes, the tragic Iris Chang. One of the servers in my lab is named for her.

The documentary/presentation is dedicated to her and follows her book closely. Lest we forget, her work on Nanking and the Bataan Death March depressed her so profoundly that she took her own life. The last casualty of Imperial Japan.

[kennylibben]

I loved her work, and was horrified nobody else had even heard of this stuff (outside of the military-history and Asian communities). I recently found out that a few years before she took her life she came to my college and spoke, I wish I would have been able to attend.

Unfortunately I don't get Cinemax...

[chuck]

The chance for reconditioning Japanese view of their responsibility for their WWII actions came and went between 1945 and 1955. Hate to say it, but the US was largely responsible for casting aside that opportunity for such short term gains as could be gleamed by turn a blind eye towards integrating the the scions of the war criminals into the ruling Liberal democratic party in Japan. Reality is such that for now and the foreseeable future, getting Japan to revise their view of themselves in a meanful way is like spitting into the wind.

[Werner]

The chance for reconditioning Japanese view of their responsibility for their WWII actions came and went between 1945 and 1955. Hate to say it, but the US was largely responsible for casting aside that opportunity for such short term gains as could be gleamed by turn a blind eye towards integrating the the scions of the war criminals into the ruling Liberal democratic party in Japan. Reality is such that for now and the foreseeable future, getting Japan to revise their view of themselves in a meanful way is like spitting into the wind.

For once we agree. I hope someone destroys the Yasukuni Shrine for permitting the ashes of "Class A" war criminals to be entombed there. It is as if the ashes of Hitler and a dozen top SS leaders were held reverentially at The Brandenberg Gate.

[Filipe Ramires]

Might not be that easy to destroy the Shrine. It would be easier just to remove the ashes of Tojo and other war criminals from there. The Shrine was built in 1869 and represents around 2.5 million people that died serving the country etc along its History and does not represent only the WWII convicted ones. Like you said Werner, if Hitler and his gang had their ashes in the Brandenburg Gate would you simply go to destroy the entire monument?

[MartinJQuinn]

I loved her work, and was horrified nobody else had even heard of this stuff (outside of the military-history and Asian communities).

It's not only Nanking that no one has heard of, that no one cares about, or that the Japanese are unrepentant about. I'm currently reading Ship of Ghosts, about the USS Houston, and it makes my blood boil when I read about how the Japanese treated not only the POWs, but the Western civilians who were caught up in their conquests. For more on how captured Westerners were treated, I also recommend Ghost Soliders (awesome book!) and Flyboys.

[Gerarddm]

The Shrine is Class A evidence on how the Japanese are STILL in denial that "the war has not necessarly proceeded to Japan's advantage".

[Werner]

Like you said Werner, if Hitler and his gang had their ashes in the Brandenburg Gate would you simply go to destroy the entire monument?

Yes, as an object lesson in hubris and national responsibility.

I think I would demand the crater be left open until such time as they admit their atrocities. Fortunately for Germany, she and her people frankly faced their evils and have buried them. Now they are a different nation.

They interviewed Japanese soldiers who were there (now in their 90s-100s), and quite a few smiled as they described how five soldiers would take turns raping a teenager while the others held her, and when they were done, they killed her. Another soldier describes his delight during beheadings.

[chuck]

.....

For once we agree.

.....I hope someone destroys the Yasukuni Shrine for permitting the ashes of "Class A" war criminals to be entombed there.....

......Yes, as an object lesson in hubris and national responsibility.

......I think I would demand the crater be left open until such time as they admit their atrocities... blah blah blah

No, we don't agree.

[Werner]

Ah, I see. So you are neutral or endorse war crimes except when done by Americans.

[chuck]

What is your mental age again?

[Timmy C]

It's called placing blame where it belongs, Werner. Even I, as a person of Chinese descent, would not condone destroying the entire shrine just for the ashes of the criminals. Place blame and punishment upon those who committed and order the crime, and leave the others to their rest.

[Werner]

As long as the shrine exists, it will be a locus where ultranationalism and militarism can be glorified and perpetuated.

The Japanese Government committed genocidal war in China for a decade. It has been estimated 250,000 Chinese peasants were murdered as reprisal for the Doolittle raid on Tokyo. If they wanted to remove all the war criminals from the shrine, how would you know where to start?

[Timmy C]

By date of deployment to the region, if they still have that? Those whom were entombed or left the military before 1930s should be allowed to rest in peace.

[Werner]

So you would remove all who served in aggressive wars? You might have to go back to 1905 for that.

[Timmy C]

Wars of aggression...might as well include the Napoleonic troops in that, too.

[Filipe Ramires]

Wars of aggression...might as well include the Napoleonic troops in that, too.

Couldn't agree more. Following that kind of thought France is yet to answer for what Napoleon troops did in Europe. In my hometown, small city of less then 100.000 citizens now Napoleon's troops used firing squads to shoot Portuguese rebels of the area. Any word of appologies from the french so far? NONE. It's been 200 years!!!

[Werner]

Wars of aggression...might as well include the Napoleonic troops in that, too.

Couldn't agree more. Following that kind of thought France is yet to answer for what Napoleon troops did in Europe. In my hometown, small city of less then 100.000 citizens now Napoleon's troops used firing squads to shoot Portuguese rebels of the area. Any word of appologies from the french so far? NONE. It's been 200 years!!!

They'll give you one from Brussels.