Calling all Royal Navy V-class & W-class fans

[finnfan]

There is a photo of Vega at Tallinn during the 1919 Baltic campaign opposite page 33 of V & W class destroyers by Antony Preston. She has a plain medium to dark grey finish and is wearing pennant number F09 in white or light grey outlined in black.

[John Snyder]

Hi Chris,

By 1919 it should have been either AP 507A or AP 507C, but I'd need to see pics to offer a more precise opinion than this.

[chris]

thanks for that i dont have the book but think ive found the same photo on a website,she certainly looks as if shes seen some arduous service judging by the weathering on her hull.
chris

[Quincy]

I am looking for some overhead pictures or 1/700 drawings of LRE's, especially the Whitehall. I am looking for the AA platform directly behind the funnel. I have the Man O' War V&W class DD's but it doesn't show a good enough vantage point of this. I am thinking its just an oval platform but I would like to be sure before continuing. I am going to do another LRE, which one, I have not yet decided? I love the WA camo scheme, too cool.




Bob Pink.

[Michael E.]

All:

I recently obtained a copy of original �as fitted� plans for HMS Valhalla, one of the five V class leaders built in 1916-1917 (HMAS Vampire also belonged to this five ship group), which has caused me to reassess my previous review of Tamiya�s kit of HMAS Vampire, and to assess the kit in an even more favorable light than previously. Accordingly, I would like to correct a number of statements I made in my original review, which I now believe to be incorrect.

I should start by staying that one lesson I have (re)learned from this experience is that because there are often numerous small differences between various ships in any particular class or group (especially a class as large as the V-W class), there is no substitute for working with plans and references for the particular ship in question.

That said, while I still don�t have plans for HMAS Vampire, I believe that the plans for HMS Valhalla which I now have provide a much better basis for comparison than the information I was previously working with, and I will therefore be comparing the kit to these plans, with the caveat that there might still have been small differences between Valhalla and Vampire. As best as I can tell, however, by comparing the plans for Valhalla with photos of Vampire, the ships were, at least initially, near if not identical sisters.

If anyone out there has plans for HMAS Vampire which they would be willing to send me a scan of (the plans are available from the Royal Australian Navy at http://www.ranhistory.org/drawings/stor ... oduct=1315) I would be glad to compare them to the Valhalla plans, to see if there are any differences.

I should add that because the Valhalla plans are fairly large (1/4 inch to the foot), I have not been able to make a direct comparison of the kit and the plans, in order to determine whether the kit�s proportions are correct. I am therefore unable to evaluate this aspect of my earlier review. But as mentioned previously, the kits� dimensions (length and beam) are spot on.

Anyhow, comparing the kit of HMAS Vampire to the plans for HMS Valhalla, I would make the following points:

1) As stated by several other members of the modelwarships.com community, the oval cross section of the kits forward stack is correct for Valhalla, and based on a photo in �Austalian Warships: Through the Lens, 1901-1940,� appears to be correct for Vampire as well. Some, if not many V-W class ships had a round cross section forward stack. But not Valhalla, or Vampire. The kit is accurate, in this regard.

2) The aft deckhouse is the right length, fore to aft, and its shape in plan view (rectangular, with faceted forward port and starboard corners) is correct for Valhalla, and based on photos on the Australian War Memorial (AWM) web site, correct for Vampire as well. Moreover, it appears that the extended aft blast shield on the aft deckhouse is correct for Valhalla, at the very least. I could not verify this detail for Vampire. It is clear, however, that different ships of the class were fitted with aft blast shields of different lengths (other drawings and many photos I have show that many ships of this class were fitted with relatively short aft blast shields).

3) Depth charge arrangements for the quarter deck correspond to arrangements shown on the plans for Valhalla, but no paravanes are shown on the plans. Photos on the AWM website purporting to show Vampire�s quarterdeck in 1940 (photo no. 133575) with depth charges and paravanes, indicate a slightly different depth charge arrangement than depicted on the Tamiya kit. But this is not a major issue.

4) The outline of the kit�s B gun platform is apparently correct. More careful examination of the kit�s part shows that the port and starboard edges are very gently curved, as shown on the plans for Valhalla, as well as every other plan and drawing for a V-W class destroyer that I have.

5) All deck details depicted on the kit (bollards, hatches, skylights, davits, winches) conform precisely to those on the plans for Valhalla.

6) Bridge details on the kit conform to those depicted in the plans for Valhalla.

In sum, this is a gem of a kit, beautifully engineered and molded, that appears to very accurately represent, as best as I can tell, two of the V class leaders �as built�: HMS Valhalla and HMAS Vampire. My apologies if the errors in my earlier review led anyone astray, and my apologies to Tamiya for not giving them full credit for a job well done.

Regards to all.

Yours truly,

Mike E.

[RNfanDan]

This is my second attempt in the week to post this, I don't know how it disappeared--hopefully this one sticks.

I posted previously about the forefunnels. Vampire and a number of others did have oval forefunnels--however, they are oval in the athwartships axis, not the more "traditional" oval which follows the longitudinal axis. Because the narrow profile of the funnel is presented to port and starboard, it can easily mislead the eye into seeing them as "round".

Other V&Ws had round forefunnels, so it is important to check closely.

Some of them had the thinner funnel aft--as seen on most interwar A-I classes and the Tribals--while others, especially the modified escorts, had one funnel removed.

I am trying to find the "identifiers" (if possible) for these variations i.e., whether by builder, subtype, or Admiralty design changes--maybe a combination of these! This was a pattern found in the Hunt class escort destroyers and in German Zerst�rer types, where minor but easily identifiable "styles" of certain details and structures were to be found between various yards.

I strongly suspect the various V&W arrangements were influenced by boiler placement, internal subdivision, and/or machinery orientation differences. Good interior profiles are helpful in this regard, which I hope to obtain soon. In any case, modelers wishing to alter their Tamiya kits are certainly not short of potential candidate ships, reconstructions, and one-offs. Lots of variety there...

Hope this is of some use!

Regards,
Dan

[Tim Stoneman]

I think all the 'V's and 'W's had oval forefunnels as you described above (often difficult to tell). The Modified 'W's (ie those with 4.7" guns) were of two different groups; the first (VANSITTART, VENOMOUS, VERITY, VOLUNTEER, WANDERER, WHITEHALL and WREN, plus seven cancelled vessels) were the same as the 'V's and 'W's, with two boilers in the for'd boiler room and one in the after room, and thus the same funnel configuration as the earlier ships. The last seven Modified 'W's (VETERAN, WHITSHED, WILD SWAN, WITHERINGTON, WIVERN, WOLVERINE and WORCESTER) plus some cancelled units had the boiler rooms transposed, a larger round forefunnel and a smaller after funnel, which allowed the bridge to be further aft and the fo'c'sle to be lengthened, thus making them better seaboats. The Throneycroft ships (WISHART and WITCH) had a similar boiler arrangement, but their after funnels were the same height as the forefunnels. The large after boiler room, next to the engine room, was why none of these ships became LREs - conversion would have left both remaining boilers in the same boiler-room which wasn't acceptable due to the risk of complete loss of power if that compartment were to be damaged.

[ar]

See drawing of Vidette in Man O War, taken from the 'as fitteds", fore funnel is round.

Modified W group; see photo of Venomous, showing round fore funnel.

Veteren of same group; oval fore funnel, see photo in Man O War and drawing (from 'as fitteds") in Preston's book.

And NOW Mike E that you have the "as fitteds" of the Valhalla, you will explain why the aft set of TTs are close to the aft deckhouse, otherwise......

I think all the 'V's and 'W's had oval forefunnels as you described above (often difficult to tell). The Modified 'W's (ie those with 4.7" guns) were of two different groups; the first (VANSITTART, VENOMOUS, VERITY, VOLUNTEER, WANDERER, WHITEHALL and WREN, plus seven cancelled vessels) were the same as the 'V's and 'W's, with two boilers in the for'd boiler room and one in the after room, and thus the same funnel configuration as the earlier ships. The last seven Modified 'W's (VETERAN, WHITSHED, WILD SWAN, WITHERINGTON, WIVERN, WOLVERINE and WORCESTER) plus some cancelled units had the boiler rooms transposed, a larger round forefunnel and a smaller after funnel, which allowed the bridge to be further aft and the fo'c'sle to be lengthened, thus making them better seaboats. The Throneycroft ships (WISHART and WITCH) had a similar boiler arrangement, but their after funnels were the same height as the forefunnels. The large after boiler room, next to the engine room, was why none of these ships became LREs - conversion would have left both remaining boilers in the same boiler-room which wasn't acceptable due to the risk of complete loss of power if that compartment were to be damaged.

[Guest]

AR:

I believe because the V class leaders had an extended searchlight platform amidships, and an extended aft deckhouse forward of the quarterdeck, which meant that the aft torpedo tubes had to be "wedged" into a tighter space.

Make sense?

Yours truly,

Mike E.

[Michael E.]

All:

To take this thread about HMAS Vampire to the next level, I was wondering if any forum members have pictures of HMAS Vampire in her early war (1940) light grey/dark grey camouflage scheme?

Two photos of the midships of Vampire while wearing this scheme can be found in the Australian War Memorial (AWM) online database (photos nos. 133526 and 133539).

The reason for my interest in this scheme, is that as best I can determine, Vampire was still pretty much in her 'as built' configuration in 1940, and one could therefore use the Tamiya kit straight from the box (since it depicts Vampire more or less 'as built'), to depict Vampire in this scheme.

Please note that as far as I can tell, this was a different scheme than that worn by Vampire in 1941-1942 (photos of this scheme can be found earlier in this thread).

Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Sincere thanks!

Yours truly,

Mike E.

[Michael E.]

All:

While reviewing photos on the Australia War Memorial web site, I noticed that a photo on the site misidentified as that of HMAS Vendetta, was actually that of HMAS Vampire (the giveaway was the hull number--I-68--which was the one wore by Vampire during the war, and not I-69 which was that worn by Vendetta).

It seems to show Vampire in an earlier version of the paint scheme she wore in 1941-1942 (see the photos posted previously in this thread).

You can view this photo on the AWM website at:

http://cas.awm.gov.au/TST2/cst.acct_mas ... &bos=Win32

Search for photo number P00219.024

Vampire already seems to have had her mainmast removed and to have landed her aft torpedo tubes which has been replaced by an AA gun of sorts, though her searchlight platform has not yet been relocated between her stacks.

Thoughts? Comments?

Now if only we could find a picture of her in her 1940 camo scheme....

Mike E.

[dick]

Mike E,

I agree with you, and here I think is a glimpse of her port side from Vendetta. It looks like a mirror image of the starboard side.

Cheers,

Dick

[George Hargreaves]

Hi,
Here are some pictures from the Glasgow Transport Museum of HMS Veteran circa 1919.
Cheers,
George

[George Hargreaves]

Here is the second set

[George Hargreaves]

The third set

[George Hargreaves]

And the last shot.

Cheers,
George

[Michael E.]

George:

Those are great photos of the HMS Veteran model in the Glasgow Transport Museum. I've been looking for closeups of that model for some time now, and this is a godsend. Many thanks!

Dick:

That's a great shot of what indeed appears to be Vampire's port side as seen from Vendetta. I was wondering how you and other list members interpret the photo. Vampire is still carrying her searchlight atop her aft compass platform (which was subsequently replaced by an AA gun), and it looks like her aft torpedo tube has already been landed and replaced by another AA gun, but it is hard to tell if it is mounted in a round tub (as I believe was the case with Vendetta, as shown in various photos on the AWM website), or on a low rectangular platform.

I see what might be a canvas shelter for the gun crew right aft of the compass platform, but this is really speculation on my part.

Any thoughts?

Mike E.

[Michael E.]

All:

After looking again at Dick's photo (see above), I take back that comment about the canvas shelter aft of the searchlight platform. Methinks I'm trying a bit too hard to discern details! But I look forward to your comments about what IS there: aft torpedos/gun tub/gun platform, whatever?.... Inquiring minds want to know.

Regards,

Mike E.

[Michael E.]

All:

Actually, it would be great if we could ask that nice sailor to slew the Breda just a bit for the next photo so we can get a better view of Vampire....

Mike E.

[Brett Morrow]

Actually boys, I am lead to believe that the previous photo of the Breda is in fact on board `WATERHEN`
Having so many interested in this class,I`m sure someone will promptly correct me if I am wrong.
I did do quite a bit of reseach when I built my Waterhen,although I didnot install the Breda on my subject.