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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:25 pm 
I had noticed back on page 17 that there was some discussion as to what the 40mm racks in the gun tubes looked like. Well here is a very clear picture as to 40mm storage in these racks.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016247.jpg


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:34 pm 
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Hey - has anyone seen this book? I was on Amazon looking for stuff for my wife's birthday and somehow wound up searching for more books on battleships (she's a big fan of these types of books :) ) and came across this paperback. Looks like it could be at least somewhat interesting...

http://www.amazon.com/BB-67-MONTANA-U-S-Navy-Battleship/dp/1934840181/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207017073&sr=1-2


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:21 am 
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I bought it. Completely worthless if you have virtually any other reference on the ship (Friedman's book, for instance).


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:46 am 
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Great - that's what I was afraid of (as I ordered a copy last night :) ). Maybe I can cancel the order...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:21 am 
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I bought the book too. Nothing more then what has already been posted in this thread. But worth having if you are a battleship book collecting maniac :heh: :heh:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:18 pm 
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Rant ON...

Ok, so I received my copy of "BB-67 Montana United States Navy Battleship, Why She Matters Today."

Sigh......

First of all, the book was advertised as a "paperback" but in reality it's a "pamphlet." There is no binding, it's in a funky 8-1/2 x 8/12" format, and comprises ~ 30 pages (which includes stuff of questionable content, ie., a discussion of the "colophon") folded in half and stapled together - I do not believe this is on any ISO paper size format list. So it's going to get lost on your bookshelf.

Written by Fred Zimmerman and published by "Nimble Books LLC" - though I haven't taken the time to validate this suspicion, it appears the two are one in the same. There's no mention of an editor. Which leads to one of my biggest pet peeves in literature: poor grammar and punctuation. I haven't read the whole thing yet, and I certainly haven't gone on a search and destroy mission looking for errors, but come on - right on the very first page of text?

The authoritative title "Why she matters today" caught my eye on Amazon. But this section of the pamphlet is largely (completely?) subjective, and includes such concepts as (my words) maybe the US Navy didn't prioritize the Montana program because a Montana State representative at the time voted against declaring war on Japan. I'm sorry, but I personally find it such a HUGE stretch to imagine that this was even in the thought process of the people making these decisions at this time in history... well, I think it's preposterous. I could MAYBE believe they'd change the name of the class if the representative's actions were such a big deal, but pulling the plug on the entire program??? COME ON! If you're going to make such an inflammatory claim (or even throw out the possibility of such) at least back it up with something a bit stronger than "There may just be such a thing as payback."

I can't find a single reference in the pamphlet which doesn't point to an Internet-based source. Which, as GT pointed out, means that there isn't anything here any of us couldn't find by sitting on our butts surfing the 'Net. I guess I'd been hoping the author had done a bit more research for the rest of us schlubs: perhaps there just ISN'T anything else out there.

The printed images of the preliminary designs haven't been cleaned up, and have been scaled down to fit the aforementioned funky format, which means you are better off referring to the ones you've already downloaded to your computer.

There are some really nice images of Imre's model: in fact they are the EXACT same ones as published right here on ModelWarships. Since they're scaled down, you probably want to refer to the 'Net-based ones instead.

I *do* like Fred's observations in the very last paragraph of the book, in which he draws analogies between Montana's demise and the possible future of aircraft carriers.

I suppose if you don't have Internet access, this pamphlet would be of increased value: but then, if you aren't online, you probably wouldn't know this book existed in the first place.

I don't usually go "off" on someone else's work like this. After all, I've never taken the plunge and written a book. I certainly don't have anything against Fred. But I really feel cheated by this publication. Probably due to my own (over)expectations: I think I was really hoping for some new information - perhaps some "recently found photos!" or maybe even a lost interview with someone involved in the program. Wishful thinking gets me every time.

Perhaps my real problem with this book goes like this: anyone who is interested in Montana is a bit of a nerd in the first place (admit it: a ship that was never built?). And we Montana-nerds have already scoured the 'Net for anything related to the program. So if you're going to publish a book about Montana that basically regurgitates what is already easily found on the 'Net, exactly who is the intended audience?

RANT OFF.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:13 am 
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Perhaps the only reasonable way to find info is to contact the US Navy and maybe Mr. Friedman. With more than 60 years having passed frome her design I think any "restricted" info about her would be available. I am a member of the US Naval institute but have never tried to contact them about the subject. Maybe I will, but I do not know how much will I get them to occupy themselves with an inquiry from a BB lunitace from Greece. Anyway, I will be sending my e-mail.


Now, on my build of the Montana by YMW I have started working on the hull, pleasant job, and I think it is the onle quality part of the kit. Lots of sanding and grinding and this :Mad_5: resin dust everywhere it can go. I ended up using a mask an goggles and a hut. :heh:
I will post some pictures of the bottom half as soon as I manage to get her into shape.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:03 am 
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I started working on the forward superstructure today. I assembled the parts (without gluing them) to only find out that I did not like it at all. I expected something more bulgy and detailed. I am posting pictures so that you can see what I mean. Who (including me) thinks I need a redesigned superstructure???


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:27 am 
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Greetings to all Montana class fans...

It's been some time since I last posted... Mainly because I was preoccupied with many projects than my precious Monty.... :big_grin: :big_grin:

Today I set about to bring the two parts of the hull together.... Although the resin casting had left really big pieces of resin I decided to glue the parts together and then bring the hull to shape. In order to make my description more comprehensive imagine this. The bottom part of the hull had a resin layer of over 2 mms (1/12 inch) thick above the low water line (the surface that supposedly would come adhere to the upper half). Accordingly, the upper half had a bottom layer of the same proportion. Blisters on the resin surface and a part of badly formed resin surface almost at a quarter of its length were not a concern...

Instead of sanding the two surfaces to their intented shape and measurement i just stuck the two parts together, after having levelled the surfaces a bit with sandpaper...

The outcome is a hull that needs many many many hours of sanding and gap filling, but the success of the procedure was that, the previously uneven inclined armoured belt of the hull can be formed more easily...

When I manage to post some pictures you will see what I mean exactly....

For the time being this is as far as I have managed to go...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:20 pm 
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Nice to see *someone* is at work on their model(s)! Best I've been able to do over the last few months is manage to put some time in on my website... and keep my Montana dusted off as it sits front and center on my workbench. Maybe by Father's Day I'll get some time...


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:58 pm 
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Got some pics for you... It took me about three hours work to bring the turret to this condition. Much sanding was and has to be done, and additional parts and paint will be added. But thought I should post this just to give you and idea. Next to the Montana main turret is the partly finished main turret of North Carolina. Just for a size comparison...
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:00 pm 
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Some more pics...
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:34 am 
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some questions for you Montana fans (even though I think I am speeking to myself sometimes)

Why do you think the secondary armament was place on the main deck and 01 level and not 01 and 02 level as in the Iowa class? Would't that be more effective?

How effective is the 40mm gun atop the superfiring turrets? Mr Friedman in his book argues that it was decided not to place one atop the Montana turrets...

Would the props of this class be equivalent to that of the Iowa class? YMW supplies the kit with four 5 blede props, whilst I think that there should be 2 with 4 blades and 2 with 5...

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:22 pm 
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There are a number of design considerations that would keep the secondary batteries low. First, the battery was only raised to the higher levels on the South Dakota's because of the lack of internal space. The deckhouse that the battery rested on was needed because there was less space in the hull than in the North Carolina's. The Iowa design starting point was the South Dakota, and the high 5" mounts were retained through the process. Second, the two high 16" turrets on Montana would adversely effect stability, even with her enormous beam, and any other design feature that compensated for that topweight couldn't be all bad. Third, the Montana's were to have the greater beam so the 5" were further out from the centerline, allowing 40MM to be placed inboard of, and above the 5". Needlessly raising the 5" meant higher 40MM and everything else associated with them.

The turret 40MM mounts were useful for aircraft crossing the bow and stern. But that was not the only consideration. The original Montana bridge design was similar in concept to the North Carolina's, with the conning tower forward of and below the pilothouse. This placed the lower CT view slots so close to the level of the turret roof that, like on the NC, a 40MM on the turret would have blocked the line-of-sight. Some speculate that had the Montana's been built, they would have been altered to the Iowa bridge design, but that does not seem to have been reflected in the actual design documents. I think it probable that the one Montana that was designated as a fleet flagship would have needed the Iowa bridge to allow for the third CT level, as carried by fleet flagships Iowa and South Dakota (neither of which could mount a 40MM on turret II). The possibility of a 40MM mount on turret III would be determined by the height of the turret roof and the height of the after MK-37 DP director - would it block the director's line-of-sight aft?

The props on the earlier ships were determined by the trade-off of speed vs. vibration. Since the Montana's were never built, any vibration issues were never identified and the exact props needed were not determined.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:00 pm 
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Unlike SD and Iowa, which were nearing completion when the US fleet was being subjected the most intense aerial attack, the construction of the Montana would span the period when the most dramatic impact of AA defence was being felt. So I suspect the Montana, if built, would show much greater deviation from initial design than earlier SD and Iowa.

If the aft MK37 is too low to accommodate a 40mm mount on turret 3, then perhaps in the course of construction the mk37 mount would be raised to clear it. Also war time experience suggest additional directors are always welcome when resisting Kamakazis and torpedo bombers. So perhaps another pair of Mk37 directors could be added abreast of the second stack. War time cruiser construction showed a tendency to trunk all boiler exhaust into a single stack to clear AA sky arc. Perhaps such a modification would also be worked into the Montana during her construction in 1943-1944. So Montana would emerge with a single large stack similar to those on late war cruisers rather than 2 separate stacks. There is also a good chance that the Montana would be built not with 40mm bofors but the 75mm AA guns originally also intended for the Iowas but abandoned to increase volume of fire. Kamakaze experience would suggest a bigger AA shell counts.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:51 am 
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In 1944-1945, the USN found that their 20 mm Oerlikons and 40 mm Bofors batteries were ineffective in stopping Japanese Kamikaze attacks. Only the 5"/38 (12.7 cm) fired a round large enough to kill-stop a determined attacker and this weapon was too heavy to use in the numbers necessary. This problem led to an accelerated program to develop an intermediate-caliber weapon that could fire a VT fuzed shell.
The weapon chosen was the standard 3"/50 (7.62 cm) Mark 22 used on many Destroyer Escorts and auxiliaries built during the latter part of World War II. This was the smallest-caliber weapon which could still use the VT fuzes available at the time. It also had a concentric counter-recoil spring, which meant that it was more easily adapted for automatic fire, which was achieved with an electrically driven auto-loader using revolving sprockets. BuOrd rushed this through the design phase, with the first prototype being ready for test firing on 1 September 1945.
Although completed too late for service during World War II, this weapon was widely used on many USA ships from the late 1940s through to the 1980s and remains in service today (2003) on a few USA ships sold to other nations and on the Norwegian Oslo Class frigates. The Spanish firm of Fabrica de Artilleria, Sociedad Española de Construccion Naval manufactured these guns under license for the Spanish Navy.
Dimensionally, the new twin 3"/50 (7.62 cm) mounting was the same size as the quad 40 mm Bofors mounting, although it weighed a bit more. The additional weight meant that these guns replaced the Bofors guns on a one for three basis, rather than the originally intended one for two basis. Ammunition was loaded from each side into the auto-loader. The sprockets turned intermittently, transporting the rounds to a loading tray, which swung down to be in line with the breech where a rammer then catapulted the rounds directly into the firing-chamber, with the breech-closing mechanism being triggered by the edge of the cartridge case as it tripped one of the ejectors. Effectively, the auto-loader simply replaced the crewmen whose job it was to push shells into the breech. The auto-loader is synchronized with the rhythm of the recoil motion, so that new rounds are ready to be rammed at the instant that the previous cartridge is ejected. Ballistically, the new automatic weapon had the same characteristics as the older weapon, although the higher rate of fire did result in a shorter barrel life.
Constructed with an autofretted monobloc barrel with chromium plating and secured at the breech by a bayonet joint. Uses an automatic breech block. The mechanical and electrical complexity of this weapon were near the limits of World War II technology and excellent servicing is required to keep it in operation. However, it did give greatly improved performance against likely aircraft targets, with testing showing that against a target representing a Nakajima plane a single rapid-fire 3"/50 (7.62 cm) was as effective as two 40 mm quad mountings and that it could effectively engage at a much longer range.

After reading the previous from the Naval weapons site (http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_3- ... -33-34.htm) I think that Chuck you have a very strong case there. Propably the gun enplacements on the main deck and 01 level of battleships could easily have 3" guns. But for further up levels the weight of the mounting is large enough or even prohibiting. (Chuck you have me thinking now for a modification :heh: :heh: )

Also, considering the single stack design, the distance between the for boiler romms and the aft ones is too big and, furthermore, I do not think that it is practical to have exhaust vents running along in the upper deck compartments.

Considering the 40mm mountings on turret tops if you see the ships design you will notice that there are 4 mountings port and stbd of the bridge, as well as two for of No1 turret and 1 at the bow (This is from Mr Friedmans Montana design in the book US BBs). What would be the gain from one mounting more atop a turret ?

As for the 5" mountings I guess that the lower the weights added the better for the ship, and assuming the lowering of the 5" mounts as a weight compensation for the two superfiring main turrets makes sence to me.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:12 am 
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The following scetch is from Mr Friedman's book. The red circles point the places where I am consedering to be the best for 3" AA gun mounts or 40mm mounts.

The red lines are the 20mm guns on the main deck and some on 01 level and the numbers are the quantity of guns...

Tell what you think...
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:40 am 
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My thoughts would be as follows, Nikos:

Aft mounts - yes.
Beside turret 4 - no
Move 20mm gallery around turret 4 - no
extra 20mm beside turret 4 - no
gallery on deck beside turret 3 - no
Deck mounts beside 3 - move them aft slightly, position to give more side-angle fire.
01 level by turret 3 - yes.
Mounts between DP turrets - center them better, hang them slightly outboard to provide better spacing against the turrets.
01 level bofors mount replace - yes, don't see why not.
deck beside turret 2 - aft more, outboard more. Center it on the old 20mm gallery.
Forward of the breakwater bofors positions - yes
20mm gallery in front of bofors - more like a V, probably only 5 guns. Just my thoughts.
20mm galleries beside anchor chain - not a good idea, honestly.
Bowsprit bofors - good forward cover, don't see why not.

You could probably afford some of the superstructure positions as well, especially the more solidly mounted ones. Like with the Iowa's Bofors tower between the stacks, those would have been a secure enough position. Lower bridge deck position would be suitable, upper bridge deck not so likely without additional bracing under it. If you want additional oerlikon positions, consider mounting galleries on top of turrets 2 and 3 at four guns each. The positions around turret 4 are questionable, because of the height issue, and potential blast effects from the main guns. If you're raising a section instead of the boat deck you could also put additional galleries there, if you wanted. Though the 20mm guns were somewhat being phased out towards the end of the war, as they'd become somewhat ineffective to a partial degree.

That's my feedback on the thought.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:47 am 
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This is based on Sauragmon's proposal with some extra mounts and the part between the funnels formed. Red circles are 3" dual mounts, green ones are 40mm mounts, blue lines are 20mm galleries.
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This gives us a total of:
18 3" dual mounts
17 40mm quad mounts
76 oerlikons, the ones on turret tops, for of the brakewater and aft of the No4 turret twin mounts. A total of 100 guns...

:big_eyes: :big_eyes: :yeah: :yeah:

give me a kamikaze to shoot at... :heh: :heh:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:24 pm 
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Well, after much thought and revision and study and gambling :heh: this is the final outfit of my Montana:
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The colours and dots you see are different type of AA weapons and their directors:
3" twin mounts are painted violet (or what it's called) as well as their directors (20 mounts)
40mm bofors are green, as well as their directors (15 mounts)
20mm single and twins are blue and the boxes are their ammo boxes (84 mounts, 16 of which are twin, the ones aft No4 turret and for of No1 turret)
Mk 37 directors are olive or something like that (6 directors)
Main gun directors are orange. (just two :big_grin: )
I have not included the 5"/54 dual purpose mounts and the main turrets of course...

My decision has been made (unless Chuck intrudes again with another fine theory :thumbs_up_1: :heh: )

Now I just have to order the 3" mounts and their directors. By the way, if I recall corectly, there was a mount that had the director on top of it and not separately didn't it ??

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