The Ship Model Forum

Hello,

Better than words, here are some links to photos showing the arrangement of protective railing around the cargo hatches:

http://www.larsenal.com/Source/galerie/ ... c_Star/HS6
http://www.larsenal.com/Source/galerie/ ... c_Star/HS8
http://www.larsenal.com/Source/galerie/ ... c_Star/HS9
http://www.larsenal.com/Source/galerie/ ... _Star/HS11
http://www.larsenal.com/Source/galerie/ ... 350_01.jpg
http://www.larsenal.com/Source/galerie/ ... 350_04.jpg
http://www.larsenal.com/Source/galerie/ ... 350_10.jpg
http://www.larsenal.com/Source/galerie/ ... 350_14.jpg

Hope this helps,
Best regards from Normandie,
Jacques Druel
L'Arsenal
www.larsenal.com

Thank you very much Jacques - I have to honestly tell you the directions were very vague - a better illustration would probably make assembly of those doors clearer. I am looking forward to further work on the ship.

John

See Model Ship Builder, Nos 41 to 46.
There you will find detailed drawings of of what you require. They are not rails that run around the cargo hatches but steam pipes.

I recently came into possession of a log book kept by a Lt (j.g.) who commanded US Navy Armed Guard detachments on a tanker and two Liberty Ships during the war. I found the reading to be so fascinating that I am now inspired to build a model of a Liberty Ship. I have opted for the Trumpeter “Jeremiah O’Brien” 1/350 kit and purchased the excellent L’Arsenal Liberty Ship upgrade set.

The Lieutenant’s ship I wish to replicate first is the “Robert J. Collier,” an EC2-S-C1 cargo ship. The time period would be for the sailing July-September 1943. In reading the Lieutenant’s log, however, I have discovered something unusual about the ship’s armament. It is for this reason I post here.

According to the VERY accurate entries of the Lieutenant’s log, the “Robert J. Collier” was armed with a typical 5”-30 gun at the stern and nine (9) 20mm guns at all other stations. There was no 3” or 4” gun on the bow. Has anyone seen photos of what the 20mm placement would look like up front? Would the gun be mounted on the existing gun platform/tub? Are there any other examples of ships with this configuration?

Being that the “Collier” was launched June 28, 1943, this would be her maiden voyage. One would expect her to have the typical armament of other Liberty Ships built at that time.

Any assistance with this building “dilemma” is appreciated.

The website http://usmaritimecommission.de/ has a gallery with many wartime pictures of liberty ships. The Robert Collier was pictured there in convoy in 1944. Unfortunately, the site just changed hosts, and many of the picture links don't seem to work, including that of the Collier. Perhaps you can contact Frank Gerhardt and see if he can get the picture back up. Alternately, the picture was originally from the National Archives, so maybe they could get you a copy.

Note any full hull wartime Liberty model should have anti-fouling paint only to the ten ft draft level. Also, the names were usually painted out.

Fred

So the hull, deck, and superstructure are all the same color? Have I been wasting time looking to paint the deck a different color? Anyone have some guidance here?

No formal guidance, merely a suggestion.

The preservation instructions may well require the same color paint on all weather surfaces, but this would be unrealistic in practice. Consider that decks & other horizontals will receive sunlight differently from vertical surfaces, and that they will suffer from dirt, grime, standing water, etc. Additionally, the hull and superstructure will get varying degrees of attention from the Bos'n. Consider that his deck force may have plenty of time for swinging paintbrushes while underway, but such time is rare while loading and unloading cargo (when you can best get to the hull sides).

Therefore, it would be entirely realistic -- and more visually satisfying, I think -- to paint the decks a slightly different shade of the required color, even in a model that will not receive significant weathering. You can do the same with deckhouses or other fittings.

This is, of course, merely an opinion. But I offer a full money-back guarantee on all my gratuitous opinions.

_________________
Andrew P, PBFHS
Chesapeake, Virginia
www.PBFHS.org

Thanks Andrew - I will have to reconsider my paint options - as you can see from a prior post, I have painted the decks a significantly darker color.

As far as I can see, everything was the same color, but decks will always be dirty, both from the dirt of cargo and the soot from the engine. The soot runs out of the scuppers and stains the outside of the hull in most every picture taken during wartime.

Fred

It's really frustrating. Frank Gerhardt's site I linked to above had hundreds of pictures of Liberty ships. Many of the ones credited to the National Archives no longer work. They were great references since they were mostly photos taken from aircraft over convoys, and gave good views of the decks and deck cargos, and variations in the armament.

Hopefully Frank can get them back. I tried to navigate the National Archive website yesterday and it's pretty ponderous, but maybe a more dedicated researcher would have better luck.

Fred

I think you're just fine with a darker deck: http://www.usmaritimecommission.de/pict ... ode=B1836a

_________________
-- Scott

If you mean the Naval Historical Center, they've copied a version onto here:
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/OnlineL ... rg11-2.htm

_________________
De quoi s'agit-il?

I see that many of the picture links on the maritime commission site are fixed, including this one of the Robert Collier:
http://usmaritimecommission.de/pictures.php?code=B1003a

Here is one of the Edmond Fanning

http://usmaritimecommission.de/pictures.php?code=B0710a

Fred

Great detective work Fred! I have an email in to the owner of the photos to get an unprotected one of the ship I am working on. Thanks again Fred!

You are welcome. If he can't get you a copy, maybe ask him where all these photos can be found in the National Archives.

It looks like the Fanning has a smaller 3 " gun aft, and maybe just another 20mm forward. She does not seem to have the common cut-out in the bulwark by #4 hatch, which was, by the way, for deploying anti-torpedo netting.

Fred

I have received an unprotected copy of the photo from Frank - I plan on studying it carefully. Looks like the ocean gray is truly on everything - decks, hull, etc. I will have to repaint the ship after adding a couple of more structures. Fred - if you notice anything else, let me know - I am not always the best with details. That front gun tub does look a little light - do you think it's really just another 20mm? Now to find a 3" gun for that rear tub...

Frank is a great guy! he has promptly responded any time I have asked him a question.

Look at the 20 mm tub aft on the starboard side. It looks like the usual gun, with a light colored canvas cover on it. 90% of the pictures show these guns covered. Now look at the tub forward. Looks like the same thing. You can probably blow up your copy better than I can.

So if you agree it's a 20mm forward, just use the kit 3" gun aft.

Is that a set of lifeboats and davits forward of the superstructure by #3 hatch? Hard to tell.

The cross trees on the top of the masts are wider than the kit's. There is a small mast for signals on the port side of the bridge. Looks like all the rafts are square.

Sometimes I wonder if there were any two Liberty ships the same.

Fred

Edit--Looks likem the after rafts are situated slightly aft from where the kit places them.

Can you provide Frank's email address? I tried the one given at the website (info@...), but my message bounced back saying it was not a valid address. I also sent a message to delbrasil@..., but have not gotten a response. I dearly need a high resolution copy of the ROBERT J COLLIER photo.

PM sent.

Well, I do not know what the problem is, but I have yet to receive any reply from Frank. This seems contrary to what others have said about his prompt and friendly replies. It has been a few weeks since my first request for a photo and now has been a number of days since my last. I am reluctant to ask again because it then looks like I am harassing him for a copy.

Are any of you members in close contact with Frank who could perhaps ask if he even received my email? Nothing has bounced back as undeliverable. My entire build is on hold until I can get a good copy of the COLLIER photo.

Thanks for any assistance.

---Mike