The Ship Model Forum

Don(?),

Here are the only images I have of LIVERMORE taken in May 1942 in a MS 12 scheme and in the six 20-mm configuration. Like most ships of this dual-class, LIVERMORE likely had at least a couple of different MS 12 patterns in early to mid-1942 before going to Ms 22 in the Fall. And no I don't have a view of the portside. I would trust the kit's instructions for the camo pattern. Note that LIVERMORE received the bracket for a Mk 12 radar atop the Mk 37 director, but not the array its self. The array was likely installed with-in the month during another yard availability.

(This photo is in Wiper's BENSON-GLEAVES CLASS book as well)

Marek. donalyah00 is just my nick.

Thank you very much for sharing the photos. I don't have the Wiper's book since USN is not my primary interest area (IJN). Apart from the camouflage I can see that all portholes are not covered as they were in some ships of the class.


I am wondering now if it would be correct to fit the model with Mk 12 radar and keep this camo pattern? I presume that every visit in the shipyard included repainting the ship, but on the photos she does look quite fresh... On the other hand lack of Mk 12 antennae would make the model look a bit different than usual. I am beginning to think about sticking to those May 1942 looks now.

Regards,
Marek

_________________
Best regards,
Marek

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/users/Marek-Targowicz/user-index.html

Paint depends on how much time in shipyard they had. IT would probably be touched up somewhat at least, but not completely repainted every stop if there were lots of short ones.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Hello All,

I am building my first destroyer the USS Laffey DD-459 by Dragon. The only photos I can find have found online have left me no better than I was before on figuring out the paint scheme when she sank. It appears in some photos, especially the lengthwise photo, that she was in a sort of Measure 22 scheme with Navy Blue lower and Haze Gray upper, but then other photos seem to show what the Dragon chart shows which is all dark (blue? or gray?) hull and superstructure. Any hard evidence out there?

_________________
" You can't dig a foxhole in a steel deck, but I damn sure tried." - History Channel

Measure 21 using 5-N Navy Blue. Have you seen her Navsource Page?

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Thanks Tracy. I can honestly say I have never seen that scheme used on any models that I can recall on this site before now. I thought it looked in photos almost like Measure 22. I just could not tell in the black and whites if the superstructure was a lighter color than the hull in photos or not, but I guess it was all the same color.

_________________
" You can't dig a foxhole in a steel deck, but I damn sure tried." - History Channel

In my experience, the easiest way to tell if it's MS 22 vs. MS 21 is actually not by comparing the superstructure vs. the hull - rather, it's looking at the bow of the hull.

As you can see in this illustration: http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0545909.jpg

MS 22 has the 5-N starting only below the lowest point of the deck. Thus, ships with main decks that have an upward curve will have a triangle of light colour at the bow where the deck curves up.

Odds are, if there is only one colour on the hull and it appears to be freshly painted (and the likelyhood of any other measure other than MS 22 is very low), then it's MS 21. If two distinct shades are at the top of the bow, then MS 22 would be most likely.

_________________
De quoi s'agit-il?

Thanks Timmy. I did think about that, but it still seemed like in the lengthwise photos of the Laffey that there was the slightest difference in hull and supersytructure colors. I was thinking.....maybe they do it different on Destroyers, but the Cruisers are not done differently (?) hmmmm. I am learning and that is the important thing . Thanks for the response.

_________________
" You can't dig a foxhole in a steel deck, but I damn sure tried." - History Channel

Hey Rory; you might want to read this review I wrote on a Squadron DD Camo book a couple of months ago; I covered and explained a bit about the Navy system so that the reader would know a bit more about why I was criticizing the book. ShipCamouflage.com also has a lot of information besides the database, including a library of the SHIPS-2 painting manuals the Navy issued during the war.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Tracy's got all you need there

Be aware, though, that some schemes may have gotten a tad lax in the post-war period. There's a shot of BB-63 Missouri entering New York in what should be MS-22, but the 5-N covers the entire hull, rather than just starting from below the lowest point of the deck.

_________________
De quoi s'agit-il?

The camouflage measure that you see in the photo is Measure 12 Revised (1945 version). Not to be confused with Measure 12 (1945 version). Clear?

Ah ha, thanks! I've had that question in the Iowa class thread for a while, but it seems to have been missed.

_________________
De quoi s'agit-il?

Does anybody know which radar USS Gwin had when it was sunk? I Can't find information anywhere or good photographs!

_________________

From looking at some photos and drawings the best I can tell is she had an SC above an SG.

Here's a drawing off navsource.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0543308.jpg

I don't count the drawing as 100% accurate but I kinda doubt that she would have carried anything different at the time.

This photo is dated 2-23-1943 off Mare Island where she was overhauled, 5 months and her last trip stateside before she was sunk. Unless she was used for some experimental stuff I'd bet on an SC and SG set.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0543301.jpg

_________________
Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

Gwin was updated in early 1943 with two twin 40-mm mounts WITH MK-49 DIRECTORS (only one of ten Benson-Gleaves to get them and the only one of the early group (DD421-444)!!!) and the latest radar suite for that date (I believe that is when she got SG radar at this yard period).

Mk49 info here.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

I have decided to go with the Polyscale 5-N and Deck Blue colors. I am using Tamiya Hull Red. Here are some progress photos. Thanks for your help guys.

_________________
" You can't dig a foxhole in a steel deck, but I damn sure tried." - History Channel

Hey Guy's wonderful job on the research and the builds so far in this thread
I am currently planning a 1/48 scratch build of a Benson Gleaves class DD.
Has anyone been able to dig up a photo of one in Drydock? What i am after is a shot of the shaft struts, They seem to be different on my plans than say like for a Benham class or Fletcher Class.
Any help would be gratefull.

_________________
Jesus Christ and General Jackson, this is the hottest potato they've handed me yet!
(Bull Halsey)

1/48 Benhan Class DD
1/48 ATF
1/48 DE
1/48 Gearing class DD
1/48 AM Minesweeper (Dry Docked)
1/24 AM Minesweeper (In for Refit)

Hello,

Preparing to build DD-429 USS Livermore I have been searching for the correct shape of the bridge ventillation. I have combined several photos to check how it looked on different Benson/Gleaves class ships:



Looking at the photos I can tell that on the starboard of Livermore in 1942 there was no mushroom ventillator as supplied in Dragon kit. What type of ventillator has been mounted on the portboard? As there is no photo of Livermore's portboard from 1942 available I have checked her siblings built at Bath Iron Works shipyard (DD423, 424, 430, 437, 438, 457, 458) and again I could not find any clear photos of brigde's port side.

On the abovepresented collage there is one photo of DD-430 USS Eberle included (marked with the question sign) but I cannot tell what kind of ventillation shaft has been mounted. I begin to think it was a straight pillar - something similar to DD-428 or DD-436, but again the photo of USS Eberle is from 1945, probably after several modifications. Has anybody seen a clear photo of this detail onboard of the abovementioned Livermore siblings from 1942? TIA

Regards,
Marek

_________________
Best regards,
Marek

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/users/Marek-Targowicz/user-index.html

Marek,

First off are you planning on building the LIVERMORE more or less straight from the box in a mid-late 1942 configuration with six 20-mm guns? I will assume so in the images I'm providing. The ventilation on the BENSON-GLEAVES dual-class was an issue throughout their career as far as I can tell. With the addition of a larger crew and more equipment (electronic being a big problem) the as built ventilation went through many changes as you have noticed. Also, the heavy seas of the North Atlantic caused many problems with water entry and different styles of vents were tried. Most vents on the forward part of the ship had doors to shut them off in bad weather, but this caused additional problems. So yes, the location and type of ventilators do vary. The early group of units (DD421-444) should be treated separate from the repeat units in many cases. But, some of the ventilation modifications were applied to ships across the groups. Some "styles" of ventilators were associated with a specific yard. If you are interested in modeling a ship at a specific timeframe and have limited views of that ship, try finding views of near sisters from the same DesDiv/DesRon if possible, because in my experience with this class ... they are MOST likely to be the closest. It does NOT work in every case, but is a good place to start.

The vents along the deckhouse on the main deck amidships is really an example of evolving ventilators.

If I have not addressed the period of interest of your build, let me know and I can try to find views for that time frame.

Below are a series of views of Bath Iron Works built GLEAVES class destroyers from the pre-war group.

USS GLEAVES (DD-423) as completed 27 May 1940. Note the use of mushroom vents.


USS NIBLACK (DD-424) as completed 16 July 1940. Note the mushroom vent and two vents of a different type with doors.


USS LIVERMORE (DD-429) after she was modified with six 20-mm guns replacing the 0.50-Cal MG's on 11 May 1942. Note that the mushroom vent has been modified to, I'm guessing, keep the water out from the front and seaward sides.


USS ERBELE (DD-430) also after she has received her six 20-mm Mod on 12 June 1942. Both ships were modified at Boston Navy Yard. Note, same type mushroom vent as used on LIVERMORE.


USS WOOLSEY (DD-437) on 2 February 1942 showing the top view of this revised mushroom vent. Looks to be a simple "ring shield" mounted around the original mushroom vent to help block off water entry.


USS LIVERMORE (DD-429) after she received two twin 40-mm mounts on 5 June 1943 at New York Navy Yard. Not a real good view, but the vents have been changed to completely different types.


USS LIVERMORE (DD-429) a couple of months later on 4 August 1943 showing the quite different design of the vents on the portside.