The Ship Model Forum

Ah, I checked. WEM has both support trusses for the forefunnel. GMM does not have either.

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

Hello guys, and a happy new year (I know a bit late, oh well xD).
I have decide to make Takao in 1943 fit (in 1/700 full hull version from Aoshima), and looking at the fantastic book "Japanese Cruisers of the Pacific War" at page 345 wich shows various modifications of Atago and Takao during the variouis stages of the war I notice two things.
First of all the version I want, Takao and Atago must have two tripple 25mm guns arround second range finder, on a special build platform, okay the kit from Aoshima gives you that option, second and the one that confuse me, shall I put the rest area for the extra machine gun crew and HA directors crew ? What period this rest area was added cause it shows clear that those area didt exist after the 1939 modifications. Those are inbtween funnels and 2 area and between type 91 HA director and 60 cm signal ligt in both sides of the bridge. In general the pieces with number 65 in picture7 and the piece with the number 77 in the picture 9 are the rest area that Im talking in the following link.
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10077535z4/70/4


Those area was added during 1944 or 1943 ?
Thanks in advance :)

A couple for points for Chuck:

Both AOTS Takao and L & W both state that the 13mm twin mounts on the bridge were removed in the fall of 1941 and replace by twin 25mm. The platform was enlarged as well. Gotta read the AOTS text, my friend

There are two GMM frets dedicated to the 1/350 Takao class. The original, 350-42, does carry the truss support for the #1 funnel (and nicely done). See this link and look to the left of the catapults: http://www.goldmm.com/ships/gms350-42.htm

Additional wind baffles added during the 1943 refits.

To Atma:

The additonal crew rest stations were added as the the # of AA mounts went up. So, these would be added during the refits of 1943 and 44. I'll try to do more looking - you are referring to a crew rest station aft of funnel #2?

Thanks. Dan. But GMM doesn't seem to offer a PE replacement for the frame that stands under the split trunked part of the forward funnel, that served as the base of the foremast prior to the refit. I was hoping to replace that as well. WEM also offer a PE part for the back of each turret with the door and cladding. The back of Aoshima's 8" turret is completely blank.

Aoshima's rendition of the rear director tower is different from that in ATOS. In ATOS, there appears to be no deck house at the level above the side ventilation grills on the little tower under the rear director. Aoshima put a little 1 level deck house there.

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

Hmm, I'm not sure which part of the support truss you are referring to - I'll need to check AOTS on that. If it's what I'm thinking of, a truss just aft of the ventilators, well, isn't all that portion hidden by the catwalks and platforms above it?

On Altma's question, I'm not certain whatother sources I've got to check aside from AOTS.

The forefunnel on the Takao is actually two separate uptakes loosely connected near their tops. The first of the two uptake, the one that emerges from the back of the bridge tower, is supported by a rather robust looking steel frame right where it turns upwards to merge with the second uptake. This frame fits in the space between the forward and aft uptake of the forestack. This frame is clearly visible even with the platforms around the funnels.

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

That's what I thought. The FlyHawk set seems to be provide that truss, though they've shaped it like vertical girders. Looks like part # 13 in their set.

Now, looking at the Miyukikai plan set for Chokai, I'd say the Flyhawk set is correct. It's actually 3 (2 of which are perforated) columns per side connected at the underside of the funnel base. Sorta like an upside down U or W.

It could be scratchbuilt from a 1/350 perforated bar set.

Yes Im referring to that single station inbetween the two funnels and the two areas at each sides of the bridge (near the signal light small platform), well like I said I want to do Takao in 1943 configuration when he just had two triple mounts on the rear rangefinder bridge. Well assuming tha twas just 2 tripple mounts and not more AA equipentmt was added till 1944, I wanted to know if those areas added in 1943 or in 1944 with the boom of more triple AA and single ones.

Per AOTS Takao, the two triple 25mm on either side of the aft director were added during the July-August 1943 refit. The large AA ready room between funnels was added Sept 1944, the AA ready rooms on the main deck, both sides between the funnels were added 1943, and L&W places the addition of the ready rooms on either side of the bridge in July. 1944. HTH.

Oh thank you so much, so all I have to do to represent Takao in 1943 ( withe extra two triple 25-mm AA) is to add the AA ready rooms on the main deck, both sides between the funnels, only.

I believe that's correct. I think 8 single 25mm mounts were added in fall 1943, but I'm not sure of their location. Enjoy your build.

Well according to "Japanese Cruisers Of The Pacific War" the two triple 25-mm AA guns where added at summer of 1943 while the first 8 single 25-mm AA where added at November 1943-January 1944.

My understanding is that single 25mm mounts were first fitted after the damage incurred at Rabaul in Nov 1943, and then further ones fitted after the Battle of the Philippine Sea. The positions are explained below. But first some details for those interested

A. In Model Art Special No.26 (Winter 2007) featuring the Takao class cruisers, the following information is provided on pages 76-77:

Table:

• 1-13 Mar 1943 : scuttles sealed, light AA increased;
• 28 Jul - 2 Aug 1943 : radar added;
• 17 Dec 1943 - 18 Jan 1944 : repairs following damage during US raid on Rabaul (5 Nov 1943), light AA again increased.

From the text:
In 1943 the water-tight integrity of the class was improved by among other things sealing scuttles, and all ships had Type 21 radar added. Light AA was augmented by two triple 25mm mounts, one each side of the aft control position, while the bridge 13mm mounts were exchanged for twin 25mm mounts.
Except for Chokai, dispatched a day earlier to aid two damaged tankers, the other three vessels were heavily hit during the raid on Rabaul on 5 Nov 1943, with the result that all three units had to return to Japan for repairs.
Takao and Atago also had their light AA strengthened at Yokosuka (where Maya too was being repaired), and Types 13 air-search and 22 surface-search radars were fitted.

B. Lacroix & Wells' Japanese Cruisers of the Pacific War on page 315 give the details for the first improvements to the light AA of Takao as follows:

Table 7.8:

• Refit period: 26 Jul - 17 Aug 1943;
• Docking period: 27 Jul - 2 Aug;
• Modifications: 2 triple 25mm mounts, windshields fitted, Type 21 air-search radar installed [Note: Type 2, Model 1, modification 2, abbreviated as Type 21(2)].

From the text:
Text on pages 323 and 326-329, a table on page 327, and a critical diagram on page 345, details the so-called Second Wartime Modifications of Takao (and these apply to Atago[/] also AIUI). The text says [i]Takao arrived in Yokosuka on 15 Nov 1943 for repairs, being dry-docked 17-27 Dec 1943 and again from 13-15 Jan 1944, with repairs finally completed 18 Jan 1944. The table on page 327 says the modifications were:

Table 7.10:

• fitting of Type 22 surface-search radar;
• various scuttles sealed;
• all 'A' class cruisers except Chokai and Maya received 8 single 25mm mounts [Note: That would be Myoko, Haguro, Nachi, Ashigara, Atago, and Takao.]

From the text:
The text on page 326-329 expands this to note that the 25mm mounts were added aft, for a total of 26 (2 triple, 6 twin, 8 single). Chokai did not return to Japan but had 10 single 25mm added in Truk in Jan 1944 for a total of 26 (8 twin, 10 single). All lower deck scuttles were sealed, as were many on the middle deck. Ships whose repairs lasted until Jan 1944 (Takao, Atago, Nachi) or later (Ashigara) had the Type 22 surface-search radar added.

Finally, critical Drawing 7.16B on page 345 indicates exactly which single 25mm mounts were fitted during the above refit, and which date from the later update after the Battle of the Philippine Sea. Specifically, the earlier single mount positions are marked with a circled "C". To describe:

• a pair each side aft of "Y" turret and before the newly-added triple mounts which are even further aft;
• a single mount each side on the main deck just aft of the catapult deck a fraction forward of the stairs leading up to the catapult deck;
• a single mount each side on the catapult deck on either side of the main mast just outboard of the width of "X" turret.

Hope this helps.

P.S. The details for Maya are given similarly, allowing differences of her light AA before and after Jul 1944 to be established.

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Gernot Hassenpflug
Find out how it works, then functionality and limits

Very specific. Thx, Gernot. IIRC, it's drawing 7.16 that has a notation on the addition of the bridge mounted AA ready rooms.

Did Takao ever carry a hydrophone array like those carried by Mogami, Yahagi, Shokaku, and even Yamato?

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

No mention in either AOTS or L&W

Does anyone know if there would have been any significant changes in appearance in the Improved Takao-class cruisers compared to the standard Takao class if they had actually been built?

One would suspect so.

1. Takao class's 8" gun proved a disappointment in its secondary AA role, so one would suspect that Takao follow on would be equipped with a stronger real AA battery than Takao's 4 4.7" guns

2. The original large bridge designed for the Mogami class, not the small one Mogami class were actually built with, were carried over from improved Takao. The large bridge, while comparable in size to Takao's, were definitely of a different shape, and more compressed front and back.

3. Mogami was built in the same time frame as when improved Takao would have been built, and had engines of comparable power. But improved boiler technology allowed only a single funnel to be carried. This suggests IMproved Takao would also have only a single funnel.

4. Japanese cruisers were designed with an eye towards survival even if the onboard torpedo warheads accidentally detonated. While the hull might survive if Takao's torpedoes blow up, the position of the torpedoes near the bridge tower brings up other problems. These problems were evidently realized when Mogamis were built, and torpedoes were moved aft. One suspect in follow on Takao they would be moved aft as well.

5. Mogami had twin rudders. Takao has single rudder. I am not sure why the change was made. But there is at least the possibility that this resulted from a change in design policy. If so, then would improved Takao also have a different hull shape aft and twin rudders?

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

I've replaced all of Aoshima's plastic masts with scratch built metal ones. Now the last piece is the maintop mast with the two canted yards. Does anyone have any reasonably clear photo of Takao's main topmast after the 1939 refit? I want to determine of the yards are built in two pieces that project out the side of the mast, or if they are carried across the mast as one continuous piece.

Another question, I can't find any ladders leading up to the 4 twin 25mm AA positions around the funnel and their connecting platform in Takao's 1941 guise. How does one gain access to these positions?

One last qestion, does the little turret that house Japanese type 95 25mm AA director come in a single variety or several significantly different varieties? Different kits depict very different configurations of hatches and sighting ports for these.

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

Hey, Chuck, if you have an email address, I can send some photos versions that are too large to post here that might be able to help with questions 1 & 2. Maybe not, depends on how much detail you need. I'll alos dig a little further question #1 for something else to scan..

Also, there are several versions of the directors in #3, though maybe not all on Takao Do you have a copy of the AOTS book?