The Ship Model Forum

Dragon's assembly instructions for both the Laffey and 1942 Buchanan kits show what looks like Mk 51 AA directors and tubs fitted just forward of the aft 20mm and 1.1" AA guns. Is this correct? Most of the photos I can find of Benson and Gleaves class ships seem to show no directors until the 40mm guns were fitted, but it is hard to see this area clearly.
Thanks,
Doug

In general terms, you are correct. Most of the class with the 1.1's carried no directors. Some had the foundations for the MK-51's, but still no directors. Some built with the basic foundations changed to a raised foundation before actually installing the MK-51's. Reviewing the available photos of the two you reference, I can see no evidence that either carried directors with the 1.1's. Of course, Laffey was lost in that config, but Buchannan eventually upgraded to the 40MM - with the directors. Rick Davis might have more.

The BENSON-GLEAVES were actually configured for Mk 49 directors (look like R2D2) like the FLETCHERS as the PLANNED FC Directors for the 40mm (and 1.1-in) guns. But, Mk 51 Directors were substituted and actually ended up being the standard.

The DML assemble view showing TWO Mk 51 directors with the single 1.1-in mount and single 20-mm on the aft deckhouse is WRONG. From what I can tell from photos, all 26 BENSON-GLEAVES configured with quad 1.1-in mounts were completed without a FC director installed ... only local control. Which is reasonable, since the MK 51 directors were not available until the summer of 1942 and all the units with the 1.1-in mounts were completed prior to July 1942. HOWEVER, I have found several BENSON-GLEAVES units prior to the North Africa invasion had a single Mk 51 (or the simpler Mk 44) installed for the quad 1.1-in mount atop the Mk 49 foundation ring. There never was a Mk 51 for the single 20-mm gun. They do appear to have installed a ready-use ammo cabinet in the location for the port director position. Of course once they started to install the twin 40-mm mounts both Mk 51 directors were installed ... the locations for the directors evolved with time.

The Pacific BENSON-GLEAVES units with the quad 1.1-in mount are a different matter. All arrived in the Pacific without a director as best I can tell. I have not seen a CLEAR photo showing a Mk 51 director installed for the quad 1.1-in mount on Pacific based units. But, because BUCHANAN and a few other units were equipped with the quad 1.1-in mount for a long period of time (through-out 1943 at least), I have to believe that a Mk 51 director was installed on them as well. I just can't prove it and even if and when I get into the textual records for these units, I'm not sure the work done by forward tenders will show the additions.

Somewhere in the older posting of this chain, thee are images of the various Mk 51 director installations. It appears that the Mk 51 directors were either mounted direct to the deck or on a platform installed on the Mk 49 foundation ring (this ring is what you see in photos and on the DML kits).

Thanks DickJ and Rick. I was fairly certain that the kit instructions were wrong and you have confirmed it.
Doug

Courtesy of Life - a Turkish Gleaves anchored in Hampton Roads for the 1957 International Naval Review honoring the 350th Anniversary of Jamestown.
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/dff7ae306ba071d1_large

_________________
Charles Landrum
USNA 1983
Norfolk, Virginia

The new 1/700 Livermore/Monssen 1+1 kit arrived the other day. They are spectacular! Hard to believe they are actually 1/700 (well, other than the size). Since I already have Livermore's big brother in 1/350, I'm curious to see what other Gleaves class kits can I make to go along with Monssen?

_________________
Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery

repost from main forum



The main difference between the two was the powerplant. The Benson's plant was a Bethlehem design with a single reduction gearing arrangement. The Gleaves class had a Gibbs and Cox designed double reduction gear plant. Since Bethlehem was the "lead yard" for the initial batch of 8 ships, the Bethlehem plant was to be installed in all 8, including the last 4, which were built by navy yards. The next batch of 8 ("lead ship" Livermore) were built to the Gibbs and Cox design (as were the intended final batch of 8 ordered the following year), but the Gleaves and Niblack from the Benson group, built by Bath Iron Works, were allowed to follow the later design. Officially, the first 8 were "Benson's" (with a footnote on the Gleaves and Niblack) while the later 16 were "Livermores". Only later were the Gleaves and Niblack acknowledged as officially part of the "Livermore" group, making Gleaves the true lead ship. This is why they are sometimes referred to as the Gleaves/Livermore class.

With war looming, 72 repeats were ordered. Of these, only the ships built by Bethlehem had the Bethlehem plant. All others received the Gibbs and Cox plant. Externally, the difference showed in the shape of the funnels. Also, the Bensons did not cover the trunking forward of the forefunnel and aft of the after stack, with a deckhouse, unlike the Gleaves class in which both trunkings were covered. The difference was more than just semantics. The proper replacement parts for repairs depended upon the manufacturer, so both types had to be maintained in the spares inventory. It was this, more than any obvious superiority of one plant type, that led to the Navy rejecting Bethlehem's request to design their own plant for the Fletcher's built in Bethlehem's yards.

The 96 BENSON-GLEAVES dual class are difficult to define easily as to standard configurations. These ships were delivered from before WWII into 1943 and were updated several times. As has been mentioned, look through this string of postings for many examples.

Besides the power-plant and different shaped stacks, there were other sub-groups based on when they were ordered/built, which builder produced them, and when key armament items (40-mm and 20-mm guns) were available. The original BENSON-GLEAVES group (DD421-444) were built/completed with five 5-in/38 mounts (except for the last couple completed), ten torpedo tubes (TT) and six 0.50-cal MG's. In mid-1941 these units had the original searchlight tower removed and DD421-428, and 431 retained five 5-in/38 guns, but lost 5-TT and had more MG's added for a total of ten. The balance of the early group, DD429-430 and 432-444, had the 53 mount 5-in/38 removed, retained 10-TT, and had 12-MG's. The previous open mounts received a half shield with a canvas top (Mount 53 on four gun units). Surviving units started to have six 20-mm replacing the 10-12 MG's in early 1942. Two twin 40-mm mounts were added starting in December 1942 into early 1944 on surviving units. There are other variations included with-in this group like the only DesDiv of the original group to see early service in the Pacific, DesDiv 22 (DD433-436), were authorized to have nine 20-mm guns like the MONSSEN kit.

The Repeat BENSON-GLEAVES units, DD-453 and after, followed the same power-plants, stacks, and basically the same layout. But, many, many, many details varied between builders and as change notices were incorporated ... check photos. Twenty-four of the Repeat units (from DD-454 on in ORDER of completion) were completed with a temporary quad 1.1-in mount in the starboard tub intended for a twin 40-mm mount. A single 20-mm gun was installed in the port tub ... this gave the ships a total of five 20-mm guns. Once the twin 40-mm mounts were available in July 1942, the authorized armament for repeat units was four 5-in mounts, two twin 40-mm mounts, four 20-mm single mounts, and 5-TT. The original group units were slowly standardized to the same except they retained 10-TT.

In late 1942 a fifth 20-mm was authorized and added in front of the bridge on an elevated platform ... FOR THE REPEAT UNITS ONLY. A short-while afterwards two more 20-mm guns were authorized in the bridge wings of Repeat Units for a total of seven 20-mm guns ... except for the twenty Square-Bridge units where the two additional 20-mm guns were added amidships. The original group retained an authorization for only four 20-mm guns. Some units updated in 1943 at Pearl Harbor got some strange looking modifications to these standards that looked nothing like sister ships modified stateside. This was the authorized armaments for the remainder of the war until the Anti-Kamikaze program came into being in April 1945. Of course some units were converted to DMS starting in late 1944. Many times, sister units in the same DesDiv were closer in configuration than to other units that were built by the same builder, but not assigned to the same Div. Many features were modified for the dual-class as lessons were learned ... example the location of the Mk 51 directors for the 40-mm mounts were relocated several times to get to a satisfactory location.

I really recommend that you seek out reference books and look through the Navsource and Destroyer History Foundation websites
... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/benson- ... index.html ...

Martin,

If you are looking for a sister GLEAVES to model WITH MONSSEN (or another one of the DesDiv 22 units ... DD433-436), other than a sister DesDiv 22 unit, look at other early arrival Repeat-Gleaves units transferred to the Pacific as they were completed. DD483-488 may work, but you will need to check operational records to see which units they sailed with.

Thanks Rick!

_________________
Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery

I'm interested in any high resolution photographs of the aft deck house - and the area immediately aft of the aft stack - of the vessels given this top weight conserving mod.

http://www.destroyerhistory.org/benson- ... nfig3.html

The following "portraits" show the mod to the Hilary P. Jones, Charles F. Hughes, and Benson:

http://www.destroyerhistory.org/benson- ... es_01.html

http://www.destroyerhistory.org/benson- ... es_01.html

http://www.destroyerhistory.org/benson- ... on_01.html

I also believe that the Gleaves was similarly modified - any others ?

It appears that all have the "convertible top" 5"/38 mounts at 5-3 and 5-4, aft torpedo tubes landed, and 6 20mm AA mounts.

( ON EDIT - I just paged thru prior posts and found Rick Davis' March 4th pics of C F HUGHES which gets me 90 % there - can't have too many pictures ! )

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=24483&start=448

In all, 9 of the original 24 of the combined class got the 5-gun, 5-tube mod: DD's 421-428 & DD 431. Of these, DD-422 and DD-431 had the #3 gun replaced by a centerline quad 1.1 mount. (Some of the 72 "repeats" also had a quad 1.1, but it was off-center in the intended starboard 40MM tub.) The #3 and #4 5" guns had the canvas top. The "ultimate battery" for the original 24 was later standardized at 4 5" guns (#3 - the original #4 - had the canvas top), 10 TT, 4 40MM (two twins) and 4 20MM. For Normandy/Southern France, many of these ships had a "portable" platform added instead of the after tubes, which carried 4 more 20MM. A few of these also temporarily mounted two single, Army-style 40MM on the main deck forward of the tubs for the twin 40MM.

After the first few repeats were delivered from the builder with no gun shields on any of the 5" mounts (only 4 mounts carried) and the first pair with 10 tubes, the repeat group's "ultimate battery" became 4 5" guns (all with full shields), 5 tubes, 4 40MM (two twins) and 7 20MM, and the first few ships were retrofitted to this standard. The repeats also carried more depth charges. There were several interim AA fits before the ultimate standard was achieved. All 72 repeats entered combat with 4 5" guns with full shields and 5 tubes.

The nine destroyers of DesRon 7, DD 421 through DD-428 and DD-431 were authorized the armament you note of five 5-in mounts and one 5-TT mount in the summer of 1941. The remaining GLEAVES class of the early group, DD-429, 430, and 432 through 444, were reduced to four 5-in mounts and two 5-TT mounts. Initially the DesRon 7 units had ten 50-cal MG's and the remaining units had twelve 50-cal MG's. In early 1942 both groups had the MG's replaced with six 20-mm guns.

Of the nine ships in DesRon 7, PLUNKETT (DD-431) had her 53 mount removed in September 1941 and had a quad 1.1-in mount located on the 53 mount ring in May 1942 . MAYO (DD-422) had her 53 mount and a quad 1.1-in mount installed in Feb 1942. The remaining seven units lost their 53 mounts when they were upgraded to two twin 40-mm mounts in 1943-44. Below are a couple of close cropped images of two to these destroyers.

DD-421 BENSON on 10 May 1943


DD-427 HILLARY P. JONES on 11 August 1943

Rick - thank you.

Interesting to note that the catwalk running to the aft deckhouse is on the port side on the BENSON and on the stbd side on the H P JONES, and that the aft of the midships deckhouse has the slanted down top under the searchlight on this ship.

Also note that the searchlight platform is the unused part "K9" on all 4 of the Dragon 1:350 kits - perhaps a hint that we'll see this variant in the future ? ( Of course, there are also the unused quad torpedo tubes in the kits - where will those go ? )

It looks like Dick and I gave you a "double-barreled" response one right after the other. I was having trouble with Photobucket last night and once I got the images "uploaded", I posted in a hurry so I didn't notice Dick's response.

There get to be many little minor differences between ships in the BENSON-GLEAVES dual class and any of the other classes due mostly to which yard worked on them and minor differences between ships or changes to how things are to be done over time.

As for DML's weapons sprue having quad TT, there are two possibilities. One it is designed to be a "generic" destroyer weapons set ... SIMS or earlier class anyone? Two is that it is reported that the earliest BENSON-GLEAVES units as commissioned carried for a short period quad TT mounts because the quint TT mounts were not ready. I have tried to tell if the earliest BENSON and GLEAVES units did indeed have quad TT mounts, but I can not tell for sure because the available photos are broadside shots with the TT mounts aligned with the length of the ship. If they did carry quad TT mounts, they didn't do so for long from photos taken a little later.

The major determinant about whether one of these ships was a "Benson" or a "Gleaves" was the difference in the powerplant. The Benson plant was designed by Bethlehem while the Gleaves plant was designed by Gibbs & Cox. Externally, this showed mostly in the shape of the funnels. Another place where this showed was in the deckhouse over the boiler uptakes. The Gleaves group had the trunked uptakes covered by a deckhouse while the Benson variant did not. (The "slanted down top" you referenced.) All of the DD-421 to 428 batch, except DD's 423 and 424, were built to the Benson plans. DD's 429-444 were Gleaves type. Of the 72 "repeats", only those actually built by Bethlehem were built to the Benson design.

I've enlarged the section showing the area on the aft end of the midships deckhouse to show the searchlight platform. I note that some decking has been added to enable access to the light as well as to the catwalk to the aft deckhouse, and the other DD427 pic shows the uptake "uncovered" from the side - a Benson characteristic which I now understand.

I assume that Gleaves class ships with the "5 & 5" mod. should then have the deckhouse covering this uptake.

Below you can see a couple of the early GLEAVES class units. Remember that the early units had two Quint TT Mounts and the foundation for those mounts were a reinforced structure. The repeat GLEAVES units (DD-453 and after) mostly didn't have this structure. I say mostly, because the earliest repeat units actually were going to be REPEATS of the earlier design with two Quint TT Mounts. The second mount was deleted from the design after their construction started and some units retained the foundation ... after a point it was too hard to remove it.

From these two views, you can see that the vents and equipment along the deckhouse were altered over the years ... many more times and in ways not even shown here between these two units over two years.

DD-436 MONSSEN on 16 May 1941 as completed.


DD-438 LUDLOW on 27 April 1943 after having the twin 40-mm mounts installed. This view shows the entire deckhouse from the bridge to the aft TT Mount.

Thanks for the help guys from my previous questions. Ive read through the thread and went on the destroyer history website. I now understand the differences and the mods done for the 44-45 time period. My next question is does anyone know if any of the ships were still painted in a dazzle camouflage scheme with the 1945 emergency AA fit? If not what ships wore dazzle with the 1944 AA fit? I just spent the last few days looking through every picture on navsource of Buckley class DEs for another project in researching (Buckley class in dazzle with the 4 single 40mm bofor addition) so I was hoping someone might have information about the Benson/Gleaves class before I go ahead and look through all the Benson/Gleaves pictures on navsource. I just want to convert the Livermore 1942 kit to a 1944-45 Gleaves class in dazzle camouflage. It looks like the kit includes a piece for the aft deckhouse that is meant for a later war ship? Ill look at the reviews about the model to see if that is mentioned there. I hope my questions arent too confusing. Thanks in advance.

_________________
-Abram
ModelWarships Gallery Page
Joslin Models Facebook Page

Dazzle Schemes were no longer in use when the Anti-Kamikaze Mods (for BENSON-GLEAVES no-TT, two quad 40-mm and two twin 40-mm mounts and two twin 20-mm and two single 20-mm mounts or in a couple of cases due to a shortage of quad 40-mm mounts, four twin 40-mm mounts).

The Dazzle Schemes on BENSON-GLEAVES were common particularly in the Atlantic in late 1944 and for a couple of months into 1945. Before that Ms 22 was common in the Atlantic. In the Pacific after the first Kamikaze attacks (and for some CO's who didn't like dazzle to begin with and didn't allow or keep their ship in that scheme for long), the dazzle schemes disappeared under afresh coat of Ms 21 (or Ms 22) in late 1944. At that time the standard authorized armament for the Repeat GLEAVES (and BENSONS) was four 5-in, two twin 40-mm mounts, seven 20-mm guns, and one quint TT mount. The 1945 BUCHANAN 1/350 scale kit had the typical configuration for this period. But, the standard DML kit has the deckhouse configuration used by most ships (initially used for one quad 1.1-in mount, but intended for two twin 40-mm mounts) ... some minor modifications will need to be made to represent specific ships. The standard kit doesn't have the bridge wing 20-mm guns or the centerline elevated tub before the bridge. The early batch BENSON-GLEAVES (DD421-444) never had these extra 20-mm guns (except for a temporary boost of four extra 20-mm guns in place of the aft TT mount for ships serving off Italy in 1944) and retained an authorized armament of two TT mounts and four 20-mm guns. The standard kit aft deckhouse isn't correct for the early ships and would need new tubs made. The LIVERMORE kit is an early GLEAVES, but the kit parts are a mix.

Pick a ship or two and I may be able to help with posting some images.