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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:34 pm 
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Posts: 94
In the past weeks I worked on the turrets, barbettes, funnels and the foreward bridge.

The barbettes were turned from perspex. I just saw a circular hole with a compass saw to clamp it in the lathe and turned it round and in form.

The funnels, the coning tower and the masters of the turrets were made largely in the same way. I cut out two pieces of 1 mm sheet styrene in the outline of the funnel, turret etc. minus 0,3 mm all around. Then two spacers were cut alo from 1 mm sheet styrene and glued between the two outlines. This frame was then enveloped with 0,3 mm sheet styrene.

The ceiling of the turrets were made in a sandwich-type construction from three sheets of 1 mm sheet styrene

Image

From the master of the turret a form was cast in silicone rubber in which the differnt turrets were cast in resin.

Image

Image

For the funnels I needed two of the enveloped frames each. Because the upper tube should stay open the 0,3 mm sheet styrene cover reaches app. 1 cm over the upper frame. When the inside of the funnel is painted black this frame can’t be seen. The cover of the junction between the thin upper and wider lower part of the funnel is made from perspex which was cut out, sanded to shape and the holes for the pipes were drilled in.

Image

Image

For the upper part of the coning tower the frames were cut as rings and get a 0,3 mm cover on the out and the inside, the inside cover reaching app. 5 mm higher than that on the outside. The space between these two „walls“ was than filled with putty so it gets a sloping upper edge.

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The platforms for the forward bridge were cut from 0,8 mm aluminium and arranged round an 18 mm PVC tube as the main shaft. The compass-, the cardhouse and the anteroom of the shaft were photo-etched parts.

Image


Some words about photo-etching

Photo-etching is one of the easiest way to get high-quality components. Compared to other usful tools like a lathe or an electronic milling machine the necessary equipment is quite cheap.

First you need an ink-jet printer (I use a HP Deskjet D 1560) and a good graphics software (I use Paint Shop Pro but freeware programs like GIMP or (if one is used to vector-based programs) Incscape will do also.

The other thing you need is an exposure unit to get the graphic on the sheets. I use a Isel UV-Belichtungsgerät Typ 1 which I got for roudabout 100,00 € on ebay, but there are several DIY guides on the net and a facial tannier or even a simple florescent shop light with UV tubes will work also (but are less comfortable)

The last thing you need is the etching tank. You can purchase one, f.e. here: http://www.saemann.de or build one yourself (one DIY instruction is here: http://www.youritronics.com/diy-etching ... nd-heater/). The tank is simply a perspex or glass cell with an aqarium heater, an aquarium pump and a surgical tube with holes to produce bubbles.

And of corse you need transparency film for inkjet printers, photo resist coated metal sheets (brass or nickel silver) and chemicals for developing and etching.

First you have to design the things you want to be etched with your graphics software. Always bear in mind that the acid will etch the metal from both sides, so you need two layouts for it (one for the front and one for the back). The most simple way is to just mirror the design, which will result in a straight piece that will look the same from both sides. That may be helpful for small or difficult to saw out pieces (f.e. rails) but means giving away the real potential of photo etching. With a little work you can create complete explosion drawings of pieces which you can simply fold to shape.

Image

Your front and back designs should than be arranged to a plate (don’t create plates of more than 10 X 10 cm as the etching process can be quite different in differnt parts of the plate resulting in parts vanishing while other parts are not completely etched through), the back side being the mirror of the front side. These plates (front and back side) are now printed on transperancy film. The prints have to be placed on another and adjusted exactly, than glued together with a stripe of sheet styrene between them (the thickness depending on the thickness of the needed metal sheets, f.e. if you want to etch 0,2 mm sheets you use 0,3 mm sheet styrene) to a sort of envelope.

Image

In this envelope you place the metal sheet, than put the whole thing in the exposure unit and expose it (the exposure-time have to be testet the first time by a bracketed series). Don’t forget to expose both sides.

The exposed sheets are then put in the devoloper (for better results and a faster process the developer has to be heated to app 40 degrees Celsius) and when completly developed under clear water to stop the process. The sheet should now show on each side the intended layout.

Then the sheet is put in the acid (I use Na2S2O8 but FeCl3 will work also but slower). The way to good results is to etch as fast as possible to minimize the time the acid has to etch on the rim of the pieces that should stand off (the so called undercut). Neatly observe the process to get the plate out when the pieces are completly etched and before the whole thing vanishes in the acid. Then again the Plate has to be put under clear water to stop the process and your self-etched pieces are ready to use.

Image

As you see photo etching is no dark art and with a little practise on your graphics software you will get far better and more accurate (esp. when you have pieces you need a lot of) results than with fretsaw or cutter-knive.

To be continued ....


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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:54 pm 
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Now that's something I've not even tried. Home photo-etching! Your Massena is looking great! :thumbs_up_1: I love mid-to-late 19th century French Naval Architecture what with the extreme tumblehome and pronounced ram bows... They simply looked powerful and menacing.

I like your idea of turning barbettes out of Perspex (I think we call it Plexiglass in my area). I believe I'll start using that method.
I'll be keeping a close eye on this build, I may be keen to try a similar myself one day.

Best of luck, and keep on keepin' on!

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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:18 pm 
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Location: St. Catharines, Ontario Canada
Thank you for the walk through of the photo etch. I am just building my own set up using a 1 US gal fish tank from Walmart. It was $23cdn and the purpose built photo etch system I was going to get was $50 for the same stuff.(tank, pump, bubble maker) All I need is a heater unit. I really liked what you have done as I need to make 1/72 watertight doors and the ones I have done from plastic just don't look as good as I had hoped.

I will keep watching as I am learning as you go.

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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:50 pm 
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Looking forward to seeing the latest progress. Also, curious to see a picture of the hull seal and how you went about bulding it.


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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:18 pm 
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O.K. there wasn’t so much progress in recent weeks but on one side I was finishing my SMS Wespe (as you can see in her own thread) AND I got quite mad finding the right colour to match the french-19th century-buff. Finally I decided that a mixture of Model Master RAF Middelstone, Model Master Semigloss White and Humbrol No. 24 will do.

The first things to paint should have been the funnels, but before I had to do some work on them. Jim Baumann (who can’t be praised enough) sent me some pictures that show clearly that the funnels were of overlapping stripes of tin. To replicate this I used thin layers of filler: starting from the bottom the first stripe is masked with tape and than two to four layers of filler are sprayed on the funnel. When you release the tape you get a sharp edge. After drying the next stripe is masked (and the one below) and again the funnel is sprayed with filler and so on. The result are very fine edges that perfectly match the look of the original funnels.

Image Image

The masters of the guns were turned on a lathe, than cast in resin using a silicone form (the key to good gun casting is a one-piece-form. If you use a parted form you will always have problems with mismatch and resin seams. Leading to guns that are more or less oval shaped).

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The foward bridge was painted carefully masking the windows. The stanchions of the coning-tower are brass etched parts.

Image

As another picture from Jim showed, all the decks of the bridge had complex beams beneath them. These were made from 0,5 mm sheet styrene.

To move onward with the bridge the bridge-decks had to be planked. From vermeer I cut pieces 1,5 X 60 mm for the planks and 2 mm X 60 mm for the frames and glued them on with epoxy. Than there was a lot of sanding, clear-varnishing and again sanding, clear-varnishing and so on. This is quite a bit of work but there is no cheating if you want a satisfying deck. If you look on a real wooden deck, you see that the sructure of the deck isn’t due to the tar between the planks but to the slightly different shade of each plank. This effect can only be achieved by planking „plank-by-plank“ and not with printed or laser-cut boards.

Image

As a new year is alway an occasion for good resolutions the next thing I want to do is a thing I shirked the last months: Cutting and finishing the hull-windows.

To be continued ...


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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:15 pm 
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As I promised I did the hull-windows. French 19th century hull-windows are a pest for the modelmaker. Where other navies had classic bulleyes french ships had bulleyes in shutters before a square window with a app. 15 cm lintel. As holes for bulleyes can be easily made with a drilling machine in which to place a golden ferrule with a stamped out clear soft plastic,

Image

on french ships you have to cut and sand (and fill, as the holes tend to fray) hundreds of rectangular holes. But as the special industrial-like look of french ships from that period depend to a large extend on these open hull windows they have to be made and as they seem had been open almost all the time, they have to be made open.

For the actual windows I etched a pattern that you can fold to something like an open box with the back being the window and the open front being the shutters.

Image

The etched plate is first spray painted on on one (the „outer“ side) and white on the other side than the sides were folded up.

Image
(the sides of the cut-in window-openings have still to be cleaned up)

the window on the backside gets a glazing from clear film and the whole box is glued in the holes. After that the complete inside of the tumbledome is coverd with clear epoxy to provide an absolute watertight sealing.

The next things I had to do were the bases for the 274 mm and 138 mm guns. A long time I thought about how to achieve the curve on the bottom of each base to fit with the tumbledome, than I read the article on the Massena-diorama by Jean-Bernard André: He had just cut a hole in the hull and glued a ring for the base in. This seemed quite easy and although I wasn’t so keen in making cuts in the hull I decided to give it a try. It worked perfektly. The holes were drawn with a pair of compasses and drilled/milled open, and the bases (two pieces of PVC tube for the 274 mm turrets and drilled up resin cast rods for the 138 mm guns) were glued in.

Image
(as you can see there are still a few window-holes to go)

To be continued ...


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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:16 pm 
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Very neat and methodical Egberth-like all your work - :thumbs_up_1:

==> good solution to an ever-present problem area with French Pre-dreadnoughts....

I have the same problem with my tiny 1/700 Carnot...
In my instance it is a case of creating a passable pastiche of the desired look....

for your interest - have a look here:

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=48865&start=0 for the thread

Jim Baumann

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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:28 pm 
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Magnificent! :thumbs_up_1:
Schmidt


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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:12 pm 
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As I finished the L’Arrogante the Massena was a little bit delaying meanwhile. But after all there were some progresses:

I did some more work on the forward bridge. Especially the rods for the sailcloth-covering of the crow’s nest was soldered together.

Image

I also continued to work on the funnels. The ledges above the lower section of the funnels were kept in position by three chains on each side. For these I used 0.8 mm brass chains. They may be even a little too thick, but they were the thinnest chains I could find and the overall look is so much better than by using my normal thin-chain-substitute, thin twisted copper wire.

Image Image

But as work progresses new questions arose:

The pictures of the Massena show her with two types of funnel caps.

One of them is a normal construction of slightly rounded struts

Image

the other a pair of adjustable flaps.

Image

As I want to build the Massena in a state short after commission (on her first tour of duty in the mediterranean) I would be keen to know when both vaiants appeared on the ship as neither of them is shown in the plans.

The second question concearning the funnels is the interior of them. Some pictures suggest, that the funnels were not open but the smoke was channeled through pipes in the funnel (something that would be not such a good thing in view of the draught of the funnel).

Image

The plans of the Massena again give no answer to that question.

The next thing I did was the aft bridge. As the plan doesn’t give that much information about her I had to reconstruct her using the different photos. Luckily the components of the aft bridge seem to be mainly the same as on the forward bridge (but put together differently) so I could use some of the etching patterns for the forward bridge (the stanchions, the halfround piece at the military mast and the chard house).

Image

And again – as I studied the pictures – a question arose: The aft bridge seems to have seen major changes, too. There are at least three configurations I could make out.

The first with no superstructure behind the mast and no „corrugated iron hut“ in front of it,

Image

the second with the „corrugated iron hut“ in front of the mast but nothing behind it

Image

and the third with a hut behind the mast and the hut in front of it.

Image

Again I would like to know the chronological order of these configurations. Maybe the two huts were just „flying“ structures, that were only set up, when the weather calls for them. But then again: Would the be set up to keep away the rain in the channel or the sun in the mediterranian? Any ideas someone?

Not such a big but nevertheless optical relevant step was the painting of the silver bands uf the big and medium guns. To achieve the very shining effect of the original I used chrome spray paint.

Image

The last parts I did were the big vents, that give the Massena that very distinctive look. There were two types of them: One very big vent in front of the aft bridge and three slightly smaller ones (two between the funnels and one between the funnel and the forward bridge with the divided base). The masters of both types were made using epoxy sculpting putty. First the oval shape of the opening was cut out of sheet styrene which thickness matches the distance from the front opening to the vent-tube. Then the tube was glued behind the shaped styrene and the gap filled and modeled with epoxy putty.

From these masters I made two-part silicon forms that are open at the bases. In these forms I gave only a small amount of resin and then sway around the form until the resin got hard. The result were perfectly hollow and thin-walled vents, that had just to be opend at the front.

Image

To be continued ...


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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:22 am 
Excellent work on "Massena", one of my favourites!! :smallsmile: :wave_1:


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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:52 pm 
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The earliest dated photo of Massena in my collection shows her in Brest in 1900 and no flaps on the funnels. All the dated post 1900 photos show no flaps either. There is also a photo of "Admiral Charner" during construction with flaps in place so, I assume, that those flaps were an early feature. However, when exactly they were removed, I cannot say.

The inboard builders drawing of Massena show furnaces venting directly into the funnels. Photos seems ( accent on "seems") to show possibility of internal pipes only in funnels without flaps. So maybe (just maybe) removal of flaps necessitated installment of internal pipes to improve draft?

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Last edited by DariusP on Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:52 pm 
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Very nice model!
About funnels I had a look at pics in books I have and I think the way you did them is as when the ship entered service.
I found not enought dated Massena's pics but had more material on Gaulois/St Louis/Charlemagne class of 1895/1896 (Massena being from 1895)

1898 pic of Bouvet (1896, Gaulois is an improved class): similar to your model: no funnel caps
1900 pic of Massena (in Brest harbour): similar to your model: no funnel caps
1904 pic of Saint Louis: no funnel caps
"post 1908" pic of Gaulois: funnel caps (both funnels)
1910 pic of Charlemagne: funnel caps (both funnels)
1915 pic of Gaulois: no funnel caps

Source: "les cuirassés français" (Jean Moulin) & "La Royale" (Jean Randier)

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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:38 pm 
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Well--just to enter the fray...

here is a photo--albeit there is no date-- but the aircraft overhead would lead us to believe it to be post 1903.... :big_grin:

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....definitely there are flaps to be seen....

Interestingly--the Beken photo of Massena at the 1905 Fleet review at Spithead--shows no flaps

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A contemporary painting of this event-which hangs in the Royal Southampton Yacht Club-- shows her with flaps... :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
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a postcard postmarked 1904 shows her With flaps....

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Your guesses gentlemen?
JB :wave_1:

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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:20 pm 
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Thank you all. I think I'll do her with the flaps. Considering your arguments and esp. the picture of the Massena in Spithead, which proofs that the flaps were removed at least 1905 and the postcard dated 1904 which proofs that the föaps must have been there at least 1904 or earlier and hoping that the french didn't jump forward an backward in case of the flaps, it seems quite plausible that they built her with flaps and later removed them. Than it is an interesting feature to show on the model, too. Although this leads to the question where the hell the chains from the wheels that seem to operate the flaps would have ended. Under deck? This would make sense, as such flaps must have been heavy and so to move them you would have needed a steam- or electrical-driven winch. Such a winch however can neither be seen on any picture nor was there enough room at least in front of the forward funnel (because of the turned-over-Y-shaped vent).

And as I opt for the flaps I think I will opt for the corrugated iron hut on the aft bridge in front of the mast, too, but will leave the first-floor-section behind the mast just dressed with canvas on stanchions. First of all I have a picture of the Massena with flaps that shows this configuration and than I made the hut already and it would be a pity to discard her.


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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:58 pm 
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3 points Jim:
1- just a hearsay for now (since I can't find this information again) but I have read somewhere that French photographers sometimes superimposed images of aeroplanes on the negatives of photos of battleships (I have seen at least 2 cases) to create kind of "mastery of the ocean and of the air" patriotic theme.
2- photo trumps painting every time :)
3- postcard is indeed stamped and labelled 1904 but it doesn't follow that photo of Massena was taken in October 1904. Just that the postcard was send on this particular date.

So, just in my opinion, the earliest dated photo of Massena without flaps is still this one:
Image

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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:01 pm 
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French magazine "Marines & Forces navales" published a serie of articles about the Massena in 2000 (always easier when your daddy's a shiplover too, he bought them all :thumbs_up_1: )

I had a look at the pics and their caption (main text doesn't mention these details):

"almost complete": with flaps
"During trial (prob Jan1898)": with flaps - shows small curved rigid bridge forward of mainmast, no big squared bridge with wings forward of it
"1898 or 1899": with flaps
"Very early in service": without flaps (??)
1899 (Toulon): with flaps (caption says post June 7th view because from that date it was decided to paint waterline white)
1900 (Brest): with flaps - shows small curved rigid bridge forward of mainmast, no , no big squared bridge with wings forward of itwith wings forward of it
Sept 1901: with flaps - behind main mast as on your 2nd view (lower stair cover looking painted and the upper one white, canvas?)
1901: with flaps - shows small curved rigid bridge forward of mainmast, no big squared bridge with wings forward of it
1902 Toulon: without flaps
Aug 1903:with flaps apparently?? (but small pic not clear) no bridge behind mainmast, must be your pic with 1st aft bridge option
"between 1903 an 1905": without flaps
1905 (Aug 2nd, Le Havre): without flaps
1905 (Aug 8th at Spithead): without flaps, with big squared bridge forward of mainmast (as on you model pic)
1905 (Aug 10th Spithead): without flaps - shows large more squared looking bridges forward and behind mainmast and wings
1909 Toulon: without
1910 Toulon: without caps - shows large squared looking bridges forward and behind mainmast and wings
1911 Toulon: shows squared rigid bridge behid main mast with canvas covered "wings"
1913 Vignettes: without flaps

Sorry, I have no scanner (and this may be forbidden? - if not then I may try with my camera?)

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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:58 pm 
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moomoon, in my previous post I have included 1900 photo of Massena in Brest. For the life of me I can't see flaps on this one.....

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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:20 pm 
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Maybe one of the the caption is wrong... The supposed 1901 pic I'm talking was probably taken earlier than your "1900" ones as there's no additional bridge forward of the curved one attached to mast.
However the Baliste was only lauched in 1903 (Oct 22nd) so the view with Massena is later than 1900...

Here is a great website about WW1 french warships:
http://www.navires-14-18.com/index.php

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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:28 pm 
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Point well made moomoon! Captions are misleading often enough.... :thumbs_up_1:

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 Post subject: Re: 1/100 Masséna
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:32 pm 
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A little bit tricky was the vent directly behind the forward bridge as this one didn't have the normal straight tube but a two legged one that was bent backwards at that, so looking like a person sitting with legs wide apart on a bar chair. This was achieved by using two styrene tubes that were cut a few times on the opposite side of the bends direction, bend in the proper way (don't think that I managed this at the first attempt. Well, actually I get to curse the french's dislike of straight lines and right angles, although this is in fact the reason why I love the french pre-dreadnaughts – You see, one has to endure attacks of split personality to build french pre-dreadnaughts) glued in the straight base of the vent and modelled in the correct shape with epoxy-putty.

Image

The big vents (except the two legged one) had struts inside, the two smaller ones also had a handrail round about.

Image Image

These were made from 0,3 and 0,5 mm brass wire, the handrail-stanchions are etched parts.

Image

The rectangular vent in front of the aft bridge is made from sheet styrene. The lamellae are again cast in resin.

As I finally decided to show the aft bridge without backward extension but with the corrugated-iron hut in front of the hut, I could than plank the bridge and glue the whole thing together.

Image

Also there was a little problem with the smaller vents as their shapes are not clearly shown on the plans. There also seems to be a lot of changing of these vents as almost all pictures show a different configuration. As the vents were detachable, it may be, that at least the vents with round feet were also interchangeable. At last I identified five types of smaller vents: mushroom-head vents with a square feet (midship), mushroom-head-vents with round feet (aft deck), medium-sized oval-head vent with square foot (only one directly behind the aft bridge), slightly smaller oval-head vents with round feet (various places) and finally small oval-head vents with round feet (also various places). The master for the mushroom-head vent was turned on a lathe. For the square foot I cast a resin rod which diameter matches the corner-to-corner diameter of the square foot. This rod was then put on the lathe and a hole was drilled in the size of the round base of the vent's head and the rod around the hole was beveled. The sqare form was then cut on a little circular saw. The same method was used for the square foot of the vent behind the aft bridge. The masters for the oval shaped vents were made the same way as the big vents described above.

Image

From all these masters a silicone form was made and the vents were cast in resin. I tried to cast all the oval shaped vents hollow as described above, but there is a limit in size under which this is not possible, so the small vents were cast solid and had to be milled hollow.

Image

To be continued ...


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