The Ship Model Forum

What would have happened if the Nimitz class of today, and the upcoming Gerald Ford were to have all of their modern electronics, weapons and nuclear reactors removed, and in the place of those sleek ships, a Nimitz or Gerald Ford - WWII era. The modern missiles replaced by the tried and true gun and the radar back to it's stone age. The powerplant brought back to the gas guzzlers, and the airwing, changed to the Warbirds of The Golden Age of Flight. What would have been if the Nimitz was made in 1942, instead of the Essex class? That leaves a lot to think about. Would the war have ended quicker? Or would they have been sitting ducks with their massive size? Huge thoughts, litterally.

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Current builds:
Hobby Boss 1/700 Type VIIC U-Boat for my AH

Planned builds:
3 more 1/700 AH submarines

To be honest I think with WW2 technology A carrier like that would not give significantly more punch than 2 Essex class (if that much) for 3 times the displacement, and all your eggs in one basket. (I would allow an increase in displacement, with WW2 technology the powerplant would be heavier to push it through the water at 30kts, or better, plus all the light AA, crews and Ammunition for same). Also you be tying a lot of shipbuilding capacity for one Hull, and in real terms how quickly could you build a vessel that big back then. An Essex took what around 16 months from keel laying to commissioning, with modern technology a Nimitz takes around 5 years, You would have to be laying them down in the late 30's, also time spent refitting to update AA armament once the war started.

All in all an interesting concept, but for the time period I would rather have 3 Essex class than I Nimitz class sized vessel, unless of course you are talking a specifically designed heavier long range strike aircaft to operate from them, the ability to hit the enemy with your carriers out of range of theirs would be a very useful attribute, without that I think you would have a bit of a White Elephant.

In wartime, even with the America's shipbuilding capacity, you would be tying a lot of yard capacity down to build one deck, when more small / meduim decks would be more efficient and flexible.

I did look at the idea for a what if project of an Aircraft Carrier for the Royal Navy based on the projected Incomperable class battlecuiser hull, but came to the conclusiont hat with 1920's technology such a vessel would be impractical & inefficiant, and even if it did happen she would not have received a decent refit after the mid 30's as it would have been seen to be tying up our biggest Aircraft carrier with war clouds rising (A la HMS Hood) so she would have still been inefficient and had a poor AA Armerment and been prize target for the Luftwaffe / kreigsmarine.

Some thoughts

Si

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Simon Heathwood

Herks have landed and taken off from Forrestalls, and the Nimitz is bigger. One could postulate from that, and the sheer size of the elevators, that they could have operated larger strike aircraft off the Nimitz WW2 - B-25's and the like, I would imagine, could be able to launch and return on a deck that big, with full flap and such. That would be a substantial capacity for strike and delivery, and quite possibly they could operate other heavier aircraft as well off such a carrier - it would make the Midway look tiny by comparison of capability.

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I must agree with you - the Nimitz would have been a force all it's own. The Midways, the supercarrier of thier age, could hold some 115 WWII Aircraft. Imagine, a carrier that makes the Midway look like an Independence. Also, if the war didn't end with the atomic bomb, and before the planned invasion of Japan, the Nimitz class, carrying sea-capable Mustangs, Mitchells, or Invaders. Along with the numerous Essex, Independence, and Jeep Carriers, the force could have done the same as the atom bomb, yet avoid the coming nuclear threats.

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Current builds:
Hobby Boss 1/700 Type VIIC U-Boat for my AH

Planned builds:
3 more 1/700 AH submarines

Why would the Navy need or even want a "sea capable" Mustang with the F4U-5 Corsair and the F8F Bearcat entering service?

The greater range to accompany the B-25s But really, the greater range - the bearcat had an extremely limited range for it's size, and the corsair and hellcat didn't have the range to do that either. As a side note, the USS Shangri La successfully tested a carrier-capable P-51D on 15 November 1944, with the addition of a tail hook. It was able to take off without assistance from a catapault.

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Current builds:
Hobby Boss 1/700 Type VIIC U-Boat for my AH

Planned builds:
3 more 1/700 AH submarines

Whilst I agree with B25s etc, a WW2 Nimitz sized carrier would be a major force. leaving technology aside, what about the shipbuilding capacity, and the effect on other priorities. If the scenario takes into account an increase in shipbuilding capacity to replace say 5 or 6 Essex class 1 for 1, and the relevant mods could be ,made to B25's A26's etc without disrupting production too greatly (what about P38s as well, good strike capabilites) then you would have a potent weapon.

The larger hulls combined with the Essexes, CVL's and CVE's would give a potent and flexible force. But the biggest issue that I keep coming back to is the practicality of building & operating such large vessels without the learning curve of the Midways and the Forestals. Also the loss or damage of one hull would have a greater impact that one or even two smaller quicker to refit / faster to build.

Still it is an intersting concept.

What sort of AA armement A WW2 timeframe Nimitz have, the balance is going to be quite tough to strike. enough firepower to be effective, but not taking up too much displacement / crew space.

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Simon Heathwood

I was thinking 1944ish, just before the kamikaze threat. I completely understand the whole shipbuilding capacity issue here, and agree that this is highly inpractical, but this is a pretty good discussion right? The pros and cons of having this huge machine in battle. Actually I have an idea... Think of the morale affect this would have, or the aircraft capacity and types. I personally, would like to have the Mustang, Mitchell, Lightning, Avenger, and Helldiver or Dauntless on board. Huge potential, and with enough of some of these aircraft, they could cut short the pcoming kamikaze threat. Some food for thought...

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Current builds:
Hobby Boss 1/700 Type VIIC U-Boat for my AH

Planned builds:
3 more 1/700 AH submarines

It is an intersting concept. I presume the WW2 vessel would come complete with angle deck. In which case it might be an idea to have the cats on the angle for launching fighters / single engined trike aircaft, (although fighters would not need)and heavy duty off the bow for bombers

A thought struck me, a vessel like that in the Atlantic, using B25's or similar as maritime patrol, it would have given the U Boats and the surface raiders a lot fewer places to hide.

standard airwing, multi purpose something like 24 B25's 48 Heldivers, 48 Avengers, 48 Mustangs 24 P38's and 48 Hellcats / corsairs.

heavy / long range strike 48 B25's 24 Helldivers 24 Avengers 48 Mustangs 36 P38's and 36 Hellcats / corsairs.

Anti Kamikazi 12 B25's 24 Heldivers, 24 Avengers, 24 Mustangs 24 P38's and 132 Hellcats / corsairs.

maritime patrol / strike 48 B25's 24 Helldivers 48 Avengers 24 Mustangs 24 P38's and 36 Hellcats / corsairs

I would reckon that might work.

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Simon Heathwood

About your Atlantic Operations idea, it probably wouldn't be such a good idea, mostly because when you didnt's find a U-Boat, it found you.

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Current builds:
Hobby Boss 1/700 Type VIIC U-Boat for my AH

Planned builds:
3 more 1/700 AH submarines

I know the Carrier for Maritime Patrol didn't work early in the war, loss of HMS Courageous etc, however, advance in technology, proper ASW screen for the carrier, stick a radar & leigh light on the B25's loose the waist guns for Radar operators position. You could cover an awful lot of sea & co-ordinate the hunting groups

Admitedly the carrier has to be lucky all the time, and the U boat only needs to get lucky once, but the mere existance of such a vessel & her Aircarft, could have a restricting effect on U Boat operations. But admitidly is a very high risk strategy.

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Simon Heathwood

I think that the solution to protecting the ship lies in numerous shipyards - like the Philly Navy Yard. I was watching a documentary that stated that their were hundreds of Wickes and Clemson class 4 Piper destroyers. The 4 inch gun armament - even though obsolete, a good surface action gun against the thin armor of U-Boat. Also, if I remember, these had tons of torpedoes and depth charges. Lastly, because this was a flush decker, there was enough space to put some K-guns, Hedgehogs, or Mousetraps.

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Current builds:
Hobby Boss 1/700 Type VIIC U-Boat for my AH

Planned builds:
3 more 1/700 AH submarines

I just had another thought that might actually have helped win the war - the Nimitz class as the world's first Assault Carrier. With that huge deck, as well as hanger, and all of those compartments in the actual design that had no use back then, why not turn this into a paratrooper ship? It could carry the C-47 or C-46, but navalized with the folding wings and tailhook of course. The hanger could possibly house 40 something aircraft and all of the required maintenance equipment. That would sum up to carry some 1,000+ Marines. A squadron of Mustangs/Apaches could take care of the Escort/CAP issue, and they wouldn't even be needed if these carriers worked in Amphibious battle groups with a normal Essex along side. These troops could have been used to knock out those bunkers and other high security targets in the pre-invasion bombardment phase of an Amphib invasion, like the use of paratroopers in D-Day. Gliders probably would not have been an option, considering the amount of space needed to get them into the air. (Unless..........)

If I may, what if I added the Forestals into the mix. With the same WWII technology though. These ships could end up working alongside the pretty obsolete Essex class. (I'm not including Independence because they were made as emergency carriers weren't they?).The Long Island, Langley, Ranger, Wasp, Yorktowns and Lexingtons would have been in mothballs or second-line duties if these were made.

If the Nimitz, Midway, and Forestal classes were made, I'm pretty sure the war would have been won sooner. But, back to the amphib idea. Assuming the Essexs would be on more minor carrier duties, [i]They[i] probably would have been the guinea pigs to this. I was thinking, to accomodate gliders, one or two of them would be fitted with a HUGE catapault. Maybe 3/5s of the deck long. The Essex would have probably been able to accomodate enough Marines to hit an airfield behind enemy lines (I'm actually thinking some 500 something men). The Aviation Support Crew would have been heavily reduced to maybe about 100 something men by then. This is assuming the crew number stayed around the same. Armament I'm guessing would require some 400 men, and the rest of the 1,700 something crew would be in as the actual ship crew. Once they've delivered the men, the C-47s could act as transports, ferrying supplies to the Marines on the ground.

I know what one of you will say about the whole paratrooper idea: The Pacific islands were not ideal paratroop terrain with the dense forests and jungles. Well, my answer to that is that places like Guadalcanal, Peleiu, Iwo, Okinawa, the Philippines +, and all have one thing that was a major threat to be taken care of, and a main target on every mission: An Airfield. The wing of attack aircraft would have spent quite a lot of time knocking out all of the flak guns, considering that the Japanese weren't really known to have so many around on the ground, and barracks buildings. With guns and a pretty large number of men taken care of, 200+ Marines could have survived well if they dug in. The Japanese were after all, expecting a sea invasion. Gliders could have brought in some 37mm AT guns, Jeeps, Mortars, a group of some 30 Seabees, fortification supplies, and reinforcements. These all would have helped in the Invasion to come. An Paratrooper Carrier could have possibly, if at Leyte, left the Escort Carriers of the Taffys (which could have been the Enterprise, Hornet, Sara, Yorktown, or Lex if the Forestals, Midways, Essexs, and Nimitzs were on the scene with Halsey) to fight the Center Force coming in to attack. I am not forgetting the escort ship issue though. I still think the Atlantas, Brooklyns, Clevelands, Baltimores, Fletchers, Bensons, and upcoming DD numbers should be the same, considering the massive airwing to stop incoming threats. Another thought: If the Japanese wanted to crush the USN at the Philippine Sea, they would have sent practically every aircraft that could be launched to attack, and with more aircraft Japanese shot down, that would mean less Kamikaze aircraft, less casualties, and the war would end a month even sooner.

A lot, I know, but this Amphibous idea could have saved a lot of everything. Some idea though.

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Current builds:
Hobby Boss 1/700 Type VIIC U-Boat for my AH

Planned builds:
3 more 1/700 AH submarines

I think (yes, again) the Gerald Ford would have been at the heart of the combat battlegroups. All of the Ford, Nimitz, and maybe 4 Essex class ships would have been running around with Halsey and his command. The rest of the Essex class would have to be the Amphib ops and other ideas I will come up with.

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Current builds:
Hobby Boss 1/700 Type VIIC U-Boat for my AH

Planned builds:
3 more 1/700 AH submarines

Here is my take on what the deck of a paratroop Essex class would look like:

The long line running from the bow to the island is my HUGE catapault to assist in glider take offs. The tow plane (C-47 or C-46) would be attached to the catapault, and the glider attached right behind it. The Elevator in the rear would be enlarged, as well as the elevator on the port side. But, now that I think about it, the Essex is too small. I'll see if a Midway would suffice then.

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Current builds:
Hobby Boss 1/700 Type VIIC U-Boat for my AH

Planned builds:
3 more 1/700 AH submarines

Okay, here is the Midway deck:

The Same things are shown here as in the Essex deck plan: enlarged catapault, enlarged elevator are in gray. This I think is more fitting due to the fact that the deck is large enough so that there is room for the gliders to get ready.

And before I forget, thanks to Cadman for the picture of the deck from the LCP Midway review!!!!!

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Current builds:
Hobby Boss 1/700 Type VIIC U-Boat for my AH

Planned builds:
3 more 1/700 AH submarines

My scrapped Hornet has given me an idea. Another Amphibious carrier I'm thinking about. Except, with a Yorktown. My Idea is, that if the Essexs and beyond were built in the 20s and 30s, the Yorktowns would be built into aircraft ferries or some other specialty ship. My idea is that the Enterprise and Yorktown would become USS Enterprise CVPA-1 and USS Yorktown CVPA-2 (Aircraft Carrier - Amphibious Transport - 1/2). They would hold 20 LCVP/LCPs and 12 LCM mk 6s each. The flight deck would be cut up so that it is copmletely flat on the port and starboard sides. The catwalks removed would make room for the machinery involved to lower the landing craft from the deck. The Hanger Deck would be completely sealed, open space would be made into maybe 3 armored compartments where the Marines would have their bunks. As for AA defense, the entire middle section of the flight deck would be free, and the guns that were once on the catwalks would be placed on platforms there. Maybe there would be room for two 5 inch twin mounts.

As for the Hornet, I had another idea. I would break it up like it was being scrapped, but in the mid and stern sections only. It would go down until the waterline. I would also eliminate the hanger deck and lengthen the hull by about 100 feet. Pumps and airtanks would be fitted too. The doors on the stern would be clamshells. (LST Type doors) This is basically an LSD on steriods. The well deck could hold SSSSOOOOOO much. I can't even say how many LVTs would fit, maybe an LST, 2 LCIs, etc... If this was built on the Wasp or Ranger Early in their service careers, they could be the mothership for 110' Subchasers, PT Boats, etc... If used at loaded with SCs in a carrier battlegroup, destroyers could focus on air attacks. Endless possibilities, especially when you think of the different varieties of craft these could carry.


I'll see about building the first design, and post progress if I do.

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Current builds:
Hobby Boss 1/700 Type VIIC U-Boat for my AH

Planned builds:
3 more 1/700 AH submarines

Hi,this is fascinating.I do have to say ,as a former ULCC captain, that I dislike ANY military vessel(COUNTRY NOTWITHSTANDING)that is so big it can,t really get out of it,s own way in tight quarters.On VLCCs and ULCCs we had to load and unload sometimes at a floating platform 2 miles offshore.Now translate that to a NIMITZ say that REALLY needs to get closer inshore.NO GO!! They got crazy on both size and the price the beleagured taxpayer had to pay.How long have the FORRESTALS been out of commission now? The life of a ship is now so ridiculously short.The surprise was that ALL WW2 naval units weren,t expected to last as long as they did.They were built cheaper per foot in NAVY facilities than in PRIVATE yards to.Now another thing is,where are the drydocks to repair these behemoths?? There isn,t many of those either.I feel we were blinded by sheer presence and size and sold a bill of goods as to they,re capability to take the battle from our shores.The ENEMIES we have are well aware of those large floating airfields shortcomings and whereabouts too! I say we need more MIDWAY(updated,of course) sized ships.They could if need be (it was a tight squeeze though) use the PANAMA CANAL, at least! commodore 4

Well, didn't they have tons of dynamite back then!!?!?!?!?!? But, now, I'll take you on a tour of my ideas. At the start of the war, carriers would number: 8 Essex, 4 Midway, 4 Forrestal, 4 Nimitz, 2 Fords (2 on the ways) The original number of Essexs (24), would have been cut to 16 due to the end of WWI. Now, 4 Essex and 1 Forrestal have been sunk/damaged beyond repair at Pearl, and 3 Essex scrapped in the interwar years. The Yorktowns, though older, have a more important role now than they would have as Aircraft ferries - the fate of the Ranger and Wasp. I would be referring to my previous post here. The Enterprise and Yorktown as Amphibious Attack Transports, with two units of the Brodie system and 8 Piper scout aircraft a piece (APA-Ls). Also to undergo this conversion is an Essex class. The Hornet would undergo conversion during the earliest phase of her construction: The LSD(L) design, also stated above. A Midway would become the paratroop carrier - stated above. The Langley, Ranger and Wasp would become Auxilaries. Langley as a target ship, and the Ranger and Wasp as Aircraft ferries. The Ferries would have all combat aviation facilities removed, and replaced with food ration containers. I'll explain the design in another post. The Essex class ships would become different types, as seen in their later careers. Maybe 2 CVS (Avengers and Mustangs) types, a scout carrier (Ship-based Kingfishers, Seahawks... and 2 fighter squadrons) and a full-time B-25 carrier (20 B-25 strafers, 1 fighter squadron).

Now, onto the escort issue. The large number of large ships requires some protection right? I say that the 8 Farraguts would be converted to PT Tenders. These would be the specialized torpedo and Sub-hunting types though. 16 depth charges a piece, plus 16+ Mousetrap racks on the Higgins 78 types. the Elco 80s would be the torpedo men. these could get up cloe and personal with any Japanese ship and unload their 4 torpedoes, and possibly serve as early warning scouts nearer to the fleet. Also, if the Somers class vessels were to have the AA equipment on the top of the deck removed and replaced by a catapault, these could have served better at scouting destroyers than the Fletchers. These could take the place of the aircraft on the cruisers and battleships, again, leaving more room for AA weapons. As another thought on the escorts, the number of Battleships should have been reduced. 2 North Carolinas, 2 South Dakotas, and 2 Iowas. The Alaskas should not have been built. Cruisers would number the same amount as the actual number, except with 9 more Clevelands, and 2 more Baltimores. Destroyers would be the same too. With more Aircraft flying off the decks, there would be less of a need for the huge escorts.

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Current builds:
Hobby Boss 1/700 Type VIIC U-Boat for my AH

Planned builds:
3 more 1/700 AH submarines

Here is my Battleplan: My guess is that the carriers would be split evenly between the two Oceans, but I would have a Ford and Nimitz in the Atlantic moved to the Pacific. This would, in the process of going out to sea, be the ships to replace Hornet at the Doolittle raid, with maybe B-25s numbering some 30 a piece. To escort these behemoths, a Nimitz, 2 Midways, and 2 Essexs, two of my PT Tenders, as well as the normal escorts. The rest of the carriers would be on their way to defend the troops at Wake, add onto the aircraft at Midway Island (Ranger and Wasp), and the rest on patrol everywhere else. In the meantime, I would deploy an Essex or two, as well as the 4 surviving old BBs around Pearl Harbor. During the time around Doolittle Raid, I would have the 5 of the Bogue CVEs off the West Coast, and the rest of them on patrol in the convoys. To aid the under-forced CVEs in the Pacific, I would add that some small seaplane tenders be added into the mix. Those conversions I mentioned earlier to the Essexs would be around 1943ish. I just remembered, the Lexingtons!!! I'd have these picketed near the northeast coast of Australia, based at Port Moresby. For the actual actions, my strategy would be that the for every major sized carrier (Forrestal+), there would be an Essex/Midway/Lexington Companion.

Now, onto the auxilary forces. To guard the vessels such as AOs, APAs, Aircraft ferries... I would assign the Pensacola, and Omaha class ships and destroyers. These, being Cruisers, are average at everything. The 8/6 inchers for surface targets, 5 inchers for AA, plus all of the small caliber weapons. And because these are the slow-pokes of the navy, the destroyers could be the 4-stackers. These would have torpedoes, depth charges, and medium caliber AA guns. The Amphibious Forces. That is a complicated one. The 3 ships I had mentioned, the ex-Yorktown CVs, and the more conventional LSTs, LCIs, etc. would have to be in a single Task Group. The Escorts could be made up of the same things as in the Carrier Fleet, except instead of Heavy Cruisers, the Brooklyn class Light Cruisers. Later in the war, the destroyers would be reduced, being replaced by Buckley and Butler class DEs.

For those of you who want some more details, drop me a PM.

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Current builds:
Hobby Boss 1/700 Type VIIC U-Boat for my AH

Planned builds:
3 more 1/700 AH submarines