The Ship Model Forum

And I've been looking for the plans for this class for almost a dozen years...

Can anyone at all help me out? Someone somewhere must have some idea how to locate a plan or linesplan of this vessel class!

Have you tried the National Archives at all? They don't have a method for ordering plans per ship, but you can hire a researcher to get them for you...

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Have you ever priced researchers at the National Archives? I could buy an airplane ticket, and three days of hotel stay in a five star hotel for what it would cost. That's why I asked here. If the National Archives were a viable option, I would have taken it already. Thanks for the suggestion, but it's not an option..

lancer525,

The blueprints are in the National Archives:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/nara/searchplans/index.php

Search for "Virginia." Eighteen drawings for the Virginia BB-13 and other ships of the class are listed. Some are paper drawings and some are on microfilm. You can buy copies of microfilm, either on film or scanned images on DVD.

You don't have to hire a researcher if you are patient and persistent. Archivists aren't naval historians or ship modelers, so it may take a few messages to get the desired information. Archivists will tell you Reel Numbers and how to order them. They cannot tell you what is on the microfilm. I have heard that they are allowed about 30 minutes to answer requests. They have been extremely helpful to me, and I have located and ordered plans for several ships from all the way across the continent, using nothing but email.

Ships blueprints are stored on microfilm. They will be in "Record Group 19." Each set of ship plans has a "Reel Number." This is misleading because there may be many actual physical reels of blueprints in a single "Reel Number." Newer blueprints (WWII and after) have a single Index Reel that lists all drawings in the set. Older sets (ships built before WWII) may not have an Index Reel, with seperate indices on each individual reel of microfilm.

Usually Reel 1 contains hull drawings, general arrangement plans and such. However many useful drawings may be scattered through all of the reels. Most of the drawings will be plumbing, electrical diagrams, vent plans, engineering spaces, etc. After all, it is a complete (mostly) set of plans to build the ship!

If you look around on the National Archives site you will eventually find an "ask us" page. Send an email to this address saying that you are looking for the blueprints for the USS Virginia BB-13 in Record Group 19. Ask for the microfilm Reel Number, the number of actual reels of microfilm, and if there is an Index Reel.

In one to two weeks (there are few archivists and many requests) you will get a response from an archivist giving you the information.

NOTE: The National Archives online microfilm search will not return results for ships plans. It is only for historical documents.

Another source of information is the Historic Naval Ships Association:

http://www.hnsa.org/

Another source is the Nautical Research Guild:

http://www.thenrg.org/

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A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

Wow, DrPR!

Your explanation is fantastic, and I am very appreciative that you gave it!

However, it runs contrary to my actual personal experience with the National Archives.

Some years ago, after several attempts at email trying to track down ANY information from the record groups containing naval vessel plans, I resorted to phone calls which got me nowhere. I'm talking phone calls and emails that stretched over years of time. All the people that I talked to, every single one of them, told me essentially the exact same thing: "You'll have to come here and go through them, we don't have time for that." And the copies are very expensive to boot. Government agency, you know... I hope it's changed since 2004, but I fear it hasn't, and I am simply not willing to waste any more time with them. Once burned and all that.

So, again, I've been forced to look to sources OTHER than the National Archives, because they left such a bad taste in my mouth. I've had bad experiences with them, and while I'm sure most of the people there do a really good job, frankly, I've never had contact with any of them. I get the other ones who are apparently just punching a time clock and don't care what kind of job they do serving the public. I'm part of that public, and I've never gotten satisfaction from them. Ever.

I am starting to feel like I need to give up on doing the Virginia Class, because the plans just aren't available. Not available by any avenue open to me, that is. The National Archives are not, RPT not an option. YMMV

I fully intend to check out both the NRG, and the HNSA, as I was not aware that they had plans or prints. Learn something new every day...

Thanks for the links!

Not sure what you want the plans for but I'll assume its for a large scale build. One alternative to the plans would be to get the 1/700 Niko kit of BB-13 and make all the requisite measurements in order to build a bigger version. I know that's a backwards way of doing it but in lieu of no plans it is an option albeit a less than desirable one. I'm not sure if it was just for a temporary exhibit or not but I remember seeing a very large, 1/48 or bigger, model of BB-13 at Nauticus (Norfolk, VA) a few years back. I'm going there in a week and if its still there I can get you some photos if you'd like. It was detailed out the wazoo so it should be useful to some extent.

You could always try calling around to any local nautical museums and see if they have any models of the class. I know its not blueprints but its better than nothing.

Just trying to help, good luck with the search.

-Mike

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Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

Mike:

Thanks for your reply...

I'm finishing up (the last 5% takes 95% of the time) a 1/200 ship, and wanted to do the Virginia Class as a future model in the same scale. I work in cardstock, so I have to have linesplan, elevations, deck plan views, and some sections in order to be able to translate any shapes or dimensions to the 3D software I use to generate the flat paper parts. Working from measurements seems really difficult to me, and I wouldn't know how to begin! LOL

I would be VERY happy for any photos you would be willing to take, if the model they have is still on exhibit! The kinds of details one can get from seeing a three dimensional object are extremely helpful when all you've got to work from are 2D blueprints. Mostly the superstructure and deck arrangements are the valuable bits, so please, by all means, feel free to take as many photos as you like! If you'll PM me, I'll send you my email address.

Thank you!

I am a researcher. Not at that archives; I research mainly for fun at the Seattle branch. There is a reason the researchers there charge that much money; all of the difficulties you have dealt with they deal with day in and day out, and you are paying for their arcane knowledge of how to get around it. Researching there isn't an option for me either, so please don't think that I'm criticizing you; the archives is arcane because it has to be in order to preserve the original structure the documents were organized in.

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Interesting...

I'm an historian. I research things for a living, I've written two books, have a third in the works, and I understand perfectly why they charge what they do. I just don't have the coin to exchange for it. They might be able to put their hands on precisely what I would like, but the process for getting to it is more complicated and expensive than I am willing to undertake. Therefore, an alternative source must exist, before I can proceed. It's really that simple.

For example: There's this guy on eBay who sells linesplans for many different types of ships. I obtained a nice little 20" x 42" copy of the plan for the NS Savannah from him for $16.00 and change. It contained almost all that I needed to do a model. That is exactly what I'm looking for in terms of plans for the Virginias. However, he doesn't have them, and hasn't ever seen them. Dead end there.

I'll keep looking, but I'm surely not sanguine about the results...

Well, like anything, our personal time is both the cheapest and most expensive thing we have to offer....

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Quite true...

I've found of late, now that I'm seeing light at the end of the drydock, so to speak, that I wish I had more time available to work on the details of the ship! (Meaning, less time at work!) Which just goes to show that what is valuable to one, may not be valuable to another... For now, the search goes on...

I can empathize with that as well; I'm trying to move at the same time Dragon is finalizing their CVL CAD and needing corrections.....

Good luck with your search; I hope you find what you're looking for at a price you can afford.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

lancer525,

Sorry you had such problems with the Archives. I do understand. One archivist told me the only plans they had for the ship I was researching (USS Oklahoma City) were for a turbogenerator control switch! The next fellow suppied me with a list of all the microfilms for all of the Cleveland class cruisers and CLG conversions - a very detailed listing! Four of the five archivists I contacted were very helpful, and I got what I was looking for. All of this happened after 2004.

Of course the microfilms were expensive and I ended up with a lot of useless drawings. It is pretty much an easter egg hunt.

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

Hey Lancer......GOOD NEWS!!!!!! The model of the Virginia is still there as part of a permanent exhibit!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And get this, its the actual model built by the Washington Navy Yard by the designer of the ship back in 1901!!!!!!!! I also got a shot of the ship's actual bell they had on display, its in need of some restoration though.

Here's the link to the Photobucket album. Hope they help man

http://s647.photobucket.com/albums/uu194/CliffyB/USS%20Virginia%20BB%2013%20Model/

Alright well it seems Photobucket doesn't like to display the full resolution of photos and instead re-sizes them All of them were shot with a 10mp D-SLR and about 2-3mb a piece. If you want any of them in their high-res format let me know and I can e-mail them to you.

-Mike

_________________
Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

Mike:

I cannot tell you how appreciative I am that you went to do this for me! YES!! I would love to have digital copies of all of those lovely wonderful images! My email address is: lancer525 at g mail dot com!

And wouldn't you believe it... A friend in Australia actually has a set of blueprint drawings! He knows what sections I need, and is hunting a place over there to make original copies (as opposed to just prints) and then he'll airmail the things to me! Life is GOOOOOD!

Sweeeeeet

Check your e-mail in a little while. I'll have to send them in several messages since G-mail limits them to 25mb a piece.

_________________
Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

Man, if ever we get the chance to meet up, the first two rounds are on me...

And if I ever do get this done up into a kit, you'll get the first copy free.

Awesome man, glad I could help!

By the way, sorry for the flash filled over head shots. I hate using it but the lighting was so darn dim I had to. Also the case was really large and I had trouble taking those shots. I'm 6'3" and I still had to stand on my toes in order to lean the camera over the top

Also, I have no idea why that lady in the first shot is shooting me the evil eye

_________________
Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

Gosh, those pics are superb! I don't think I've ever seen the bridge of this ship so clearly.

I think you did a fantastic job shooting the pics, and wonder if you missed your calling as a professional photographer.

I can't thank you enough for doing this. It is great to have folks in the community so willing to help!