The Ship Model Forum

Alcon:

Here is another gem from the internet: some very nice film footage shot aboard HMAS Voyager (the camo scheme on the aft funnel is the giveaway) in the Med in '41. It shows very nicely the 12 pdr and 20mm Breda cannon fitted in place of the aft torpedo tubes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mifL0bjDxp4

Enjoy!

Mike E.

_________________
Mike E.

Hi
I am trying to research HMS Whitley W class distroyer. There are a couple of pictures of the ship on the web http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/l ... %20Whitley and http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... hitley.htm

I notice that the ships side number are different D67 in the first and L23 in the second.

Does anyone know the correct side number for HMS Whitley?

Thank you for your interest.

Drogo,

Pennant numbers on British destroyers were not permanently assigned like hull numbers on USN destroyers. The RN could and did change them as needed. Since, WHITLEY was one of the WAIR conversions, they likely changed the Pennant number at that time. During WWII she had the Pennant # L.23 and earlier in her career (guessing about 1936 and earlier) she worn # D.67.

Thank you Rick,

My father is ex-RN and our surname is Whitley. I was buying the Tamiya V class model Vampire and was then going to give it the HMS Whitley Pennant number. I realise that the V class had different equipment to the W class, but I thought that this was close enough for him. I apologise to all model makers on here that strive to make the models as accurate as possible!

I have already made an Armstrong Whitworth Whitley Bomber for him, which he was delighted to receive. I just wish I could find a W class destroyer model rather than the V class destroyer.

The simplest response is that the Vs and Ws were not separate classes so a kit of a V destroyer may well be suitable for a W. The problem is that there were considerable differences within the V/Ws, several sub-classes as well as differences between individual ships.

From a quick check, it appears that you could buy the kit of Vampire and have an acceptable prewar Whitley from the box. Others may correct me in matters of detail - hopefully only small details. For a WW2 Whitley, White Ensign has stated that they are producing a complete kit of a Wair conversion, and that is going to be Whitley herself.

Great news on the White Ensign kit, thank you for the heads up!

(Offer withdrawn)

I'd like to build the HMAS Vampire kit as a WW1 vessel if possible - is it possible to do so, and does anyone do a conversion set/PE for it?

Does anyone have any info on HMS Winchester (WAIR conversion). I have the WSW (I think!) 1/700 kit but the painting guide is a bit lacking. What colours was she painted in and which camou pattern might she have carried?

thanks
Mike

some images of winchester from the book "v & w class destroyers" man-o-war 2
ciao peppe

Excellent pics thanks! They will be very helpful!

What colours was she painted in? Decks as well as vertical surfaces.

thanks
Mike

Any ideas about Winchester's camouflage colours?

thanks
Mike

Apologies if i'm just being dumb but trawling through the posts here, plus various other sites eg. RAN site I'm still a little unclear on whether a consensus was reached on HMAS Vampire fit out before the second single 2 pounder was fitted in 1942 or whether people agreeing to disgree. Is it 4 x QF 4 inch, 1 x 2 pounder in tub aft of aft funnel and then 12 pounder in circular tub replacing aft torpedo tubes, with search light position remaining the same position (until moved between funnels and second 2 pounder added in 1942) and twin lewis guns on bridge wings?
cheers
dan

Retrofitting HMAS Vampire to Admiralty V Leader, V & W Class

You could just use this Colour Guide:


Notes to Colour Guide:
1. 507B and 507C are the WW1 neutral greys that ONLY have Black and White pigments. Do NOT use the AP507 series from inter-war and WW2 as these colours contain blue pigment and are wrong for WW1.
2. 507B Grey and 507C Light Grey are not commercially available. Please use your favourite Black and White paint to make these up.
3. Dark deck colours are to camouflage from aircraft spotting. This was not understood in WW1 so the steel decks are the same as the hull colour, 507B, along with all fittings on the deck.
4. The Upper Works, that is everything above the deck, was coloured a slightly lighter grey 507C.
5. There were no funnel bands, funnel top colours or waterlines painted black in WW1.
6. Coir mat or Coconut matting was used on a number of RN ships latter in the war. Its purpose was to provide non-slip walkways along the non-working spaces of the deck. This is the same mat that is commonly used for door mats today; the colour is natural coconut fiber that can be made by adding 2:1 by volume of Testors 1166 and Model Master 1736.

Or ...

Assumed Kits
1. Tamiya 1/700 HMAS Vampire Item 31910
2. White Ensign's PE791 1/700 Royal Navy V & W Class Destroyers
3. White Ensign's PE 7031/700 RN Doors & Hatches
4. White Ensign's PE 7841/700 RN Cable Reels
5. 1/700 Rainbow Models IJN Paravane Set 2 Middle size Rb7104

References
1. V & W Class Destroyers 1917 – 1945 by Antony Preston
2. British Destroyers by Edgar J. March
3. Man O’War 2 V and W Class Destroyers by Alan Raven and John Roberts
4. British Destroyers From Earliest Days to the Second World War by Norman Friedman
5. British Warships 1914 – 1919 by FJ Dittmar & JJ Colledge
6. On RN WW1 Grey, ModelWarships Forum, http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=154630
7. Wikipedia V & W Classes, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_and_W-class_destroyer

The Basis
The V Class Leaders were built over the period of 25 May 1916 to 22 September 1917 and all had the identical hull, bridge and deck house structures. They were all armed with four 4-inch 45 Cal QF Mk V on CP II mountings with a single 3-inch HA 20 cwt Mk III gun. All but HMS Vampire had four 21-inch torpedo tubes mounted 2 x 2. HMS Vampire had six 21-inch torpedo tubes mounted 2 x 3 as completed. The V Class Leaders were: HMS Valentine, HMS Valhalla, HMS Valkyrie, HMS Valorous and HMS Vampire. Fortunately for modellers HMS Vampire was commissioned into the RAN on 11 October 1933. Due to world economics and the distance from British shipyards there was little change to the appearance of HMAS Vampire at the time she was modelled by Tamiya.

V&W Class specials as built by Thornycroft will not be considered as they are so different.



The V Leader Build

Step 1 Funnels
Build the funnels as per Step 1; the fore funnel shape is correct for the Leaders. Remove the funnel screens and use WEM PE part 59 for each funnel. Add WEM PE parts 28 and 58 to the fore funnel.

Step 2 3” HA Gun
Remove the solid railing from Part A9, try to leave the ammunition boxes. Replace the railings with WEM PE part 2, 2-Bar platform Railings. Fill in the railing with a 1:1 blend of water with white glue to create the canvas dodgers used. If 12 o’clock is forward, add a ladder from the main deck to the platform at the 2 o’clock position using WEM PE part 7.

Step 3 Torpedo Tubes
For HMS Vampire build torpedo tubes as per instructions. For all other Leaders discard Part B5 and remove the joining link at the rear of the torpedo tube.

Step 4 Bridge Assembly
Remove the molded doors and ladders from parts B19 and B20 and use WEM PE part 7 to make up the ladders. WEM 1/700 RN Doors & Hatches PE 703 or similar can be used for the 4 doors. Assemble parts B19 and B20. Remove the solid railing from part B3, lower bridge deck, and replace with WEM PE part 3, Close Stanchion Railings. Add part B23 to the assembly. From part B7 remove the solid railings and replace with WEM PE part 3, leave a space for the ladder from the lower bridge as per 1. Bridge Profile Detail.



Part B8, Range Finder, is too long, it should be a 9 foot range finder or 3.9 mm long. The range finder measures 4.77 mm so remove 0.435 mm from each end.



Use drawings 1. Bridge Profile Detail, 2. Lower Bridge Plan Detail and 3. Upper Bridge Plan Detail to scratch build the missing detail parts. From drawing 2 item 2A is a small signaling search light, build 2 and place on the cones on part B3. Item 9A is the Director Control Tower, scratch build this and add to the bridge. Item 19A, Torpedo Deflection Sight Stand, is shown as a small bump in the bridge deck, scratch build two, see 4. below for details. Item 4A, Chart Table will also have to be scratch built from scrap PE. In the back corners of the upper bridge place WEM PE part 74, Bridge Semaphores. Items 6A are Signal Flag Lockers and will have to be scratch built. Item 6K is the Aerial Truck and is correctly positioned on the back of part 19, there should be a ladder running up to it from the deck, use WEM PE part 7 to make this.

Both the lower and upper bridge railings were covered in Splinter Mattresses; this is WEM PE part 56. You may use this part as is. Or you may press the part into warm Plasticine and make an impression about twice the thickness of the PE. Allow the Plasticine to cool/harden and fill the impression with white glue and allow to dry. Gently remove the molded glue from the Plasticine and trim to fit railings.

Item 19B is the Dumaresque Stand and can be added from scrap PE. Item 2B is the Bow Light Box and can also be built from scrap PE. From the Glasgow Transport Museum, photo 4. HMS Veteran Bridge shows everything in place. Note that the wind deflector should also be added to the front and sides of the upper bridge.



Step 5 Hull Assembly
Remove the ‘Aztec’ stairs running from the main deck to the fore deck. These may be replaced by WEM PE part 63. Remove the anchor chain from the bow and the two paravanes at the stern. Complete the rest of the hull as shown in the instructions.

You may use 4-inch guns parts B1 as directed or you may follow the WEM PE instructions. Here you cut away the gun shield and shape a 4-inch gun on a pedestal. WEM PE part 53 can be shaped into the gun shield. A small piece of scrap PE can be bent to represent the loading arm, see Colour Guide or 11. for details.

Add WEM PE part 61, bridge wing ladders these are shown in 7. HMS Veteran Boat Booms below.

Step 6 Attaching Funnels and Deck Houses
Part A10, B Gun Platform is attached to the bridge assembly. WEM PE part 2 can be used as per photo 4 above. Make up ladders running from the fore deck up to B Gun at the back of the platform next to the deck house. These ladders are just visible in photo 4 above. The squares in the outer aft corners of Part A10 are ammunition hand ups, WEM PR part 49 may be mounted above the hatches, post forward. For the V Class Leaders the bridge wings are not supported by a steel framework as shown in Photo 4. Instead there is a simple pole underneath the small search light, scratch make this from brass wire.

Part B6 combines the search light with the compass platform; this is unique to the V Class Leaders. Remove the solid railing and replace with WEM PE part 3, Close Stanchion Railings. Fill in the railing with a 1:1 blend of water with white glue to create the canvas dodgers used. Add ladders on both the port and starboard side in the middle using WEM PE part 7. Part B9 is the searchlight, WEM PE part 66 provides for lens crosses. Add WEM PE part 3, Close Stanchion Railings around the small search light platform on part B9.

Part B6 can be further enhanced by removing the solid base. Reshape the locating lug on the deck part B14 using Photo 5 Search light Platform. The platform support framework can be made from WEM PE Part 34. Cut off the base framework from WEM PE Part 34 and add the trimmed platform Part B6. The 4 braces may be made from scrape PE.







Part A11 is the After Gun Platform and it needs some work. As per 6. After Gun Platform Profile and 7. After Gun Platform Plan drawings remove the two rectangles on the forward edge and add 3 port holes per side. Railings can be made up using WEM PE part 2. Item 15, ammunition hand up is correct for the starboard side but needs to be duplicated to port. Add the ladder on the port forward corner for WEM PE part 7. Add two doors to the forward side as per 7. below. WEM 1/700 RN Doors & Hatches PE 703 or similar can be used. Photo 8. Two additional carley floats may be added. HMS Veteran After Gun Platform shows what the completed assembly should look like.

Retrofitting HMAS Vampire to Admiralty V Leader, V & W Class Continued

Part B26 the fore mast is wrong. The long spar needs to be moved 2 mm below the lookout position and a second short spar needs to be installed 2 mm above the lookout position. If using WEM PE parts 68, 69 and 73, remember to remove the lower boom and antennas from part 73. There are 4 boat booms to be added at the hull break as shown below in Photo 9. HMS Veteran Boat Booms.



Notice as well the cable reel next to the motor boat, this can be added from WEM 1/700 RN Cable Reels (PE 784) set to both sides of the main deck. The davits for the boats can be replaced with WEM PE part 25. The 27’ whalers can be updated using WEM PE part 24 which also provides for rudder and oars. The motor boat, part B13 can be updated using WEM PE part 23. Part B24 are the torpedo davits, these can be updated with WEM PE part 67.



On the stern the paravanes can be replaced with 1/700 Rainbow Models IJN Paravane Set 2 Middle size Rb7104 or similar. The IJN closely followed RN developments in WWI and transferred the paravanes technology. The Rainbow Rb7104 is a good fit. In Step 5 part A3 Carley Float is placed on a small platform just behind the first funnel. This was moved forward of the funnel on a frame rack at the same height and same orientation. Two additional paravanes where then stored on the platform between the two 27” Whalers; the starboard one facing aft and port paravane facing forward. See the Colour Guide for position. Paravanes where carried by mine laying destroyers and those screening the Grand Fleet.

Part A2 are the anchors, use as supplied or switch to WEM PE part 9. On the fore deck the anchor chain can be replaced by WEM PE part 11. WEM PE part 40 is the Jack Staff placed at the bow. WEM PE part 1 Standard 3-Bar Railings may be used to line the hull edges.

Complete the remainder of Step 6 as shown.




The V Build

As per The V Leader Build with changes below:
1. Make a new round forward funnel the same length as B17/B18 and 2.75 mm in diameter excluding the funnel cap. You can use the steam pipe from part B18.
WEM PE part 59 has the funnel cap grilles.
2. HMS Vectis and HMS Vortigern made by J. S. White require completely new funnels.
3. For all discard Part B5 and remove the joining link at the rear of the torpedo tube. The third tube was installed in all V Class during 1920.
4. For all rearrange the search light, aft torpedo bank, main mast, secondary helm position all prior to the After Gun Platform. See drawing 11.
Stern of HMS Vivacious 1918.
5. Replace part B6 with WEM PE Part 26. Note the shape of the railings can change as per the WEM PE instructions. Try reference 7 for a photo.
6. From the V Leader, the V Class foremast is shortened, spars repositioned and crowsnest deleted.

Mast is 29 mm tall with lower spar 19mm up from deck and upper spar 1.5 mm down from top.
7. Motor boat replaces starboard whaler so that there are only two lifeboats. Cable reels are just aft of both lifeboats.
8. Remove the range finder and director from the top bridge and replace with a single semaphore, WEM PE part 74, where the range finder was.
The range finder and director were installed in the 1920’s.
9. The drawing 11. Stern of HMS Vivacious 1918 is typical of the V Class minelayers with room for 60 H2 mines.



Depth Charge Outfits
Depth charge outfits varied by destroyer by task assigned. Some with the Grand Fleet had no depth charges while others on Anti Submarine Warfare duties had 18 (HMS Vanessa May 1918). In 1917 there typically were 4 depth charges arranged on the stern as shown in 12. Four Stern Depth Charges.



A common loading in 1918 was as per HMS Veteran in photo 7. Here there is a rack for 4 on the stern to port along with a depth charge thrower just ahead of the after gun platform. The thrower typically had 2 depth charges on a small platform just aft of it and one additional depth charge on a deck rack just ahead of it. WEM PE part 62 is the correct Thornycroft depth charge thrower developed in WW1. WEM PE part 49, Depth Charge handling Davit, should be placed between the Thrower and the small rack.




The W Build

As per The V Build with changes below:
1. All of the W Class had triple torpedo tubes so use part B5 for all.
2. HMS Winchester and HMS Winchelsea as made by White had modified funnels.



The Modified W Group 1 Build

As per The W Build with changes below:
1. Use filler to modify the stern by changing the concave stern to a straight stern
2. Replace the 4” guns with 4.7” guns. The Tamiya E Class destroyer has QF 4.7-inch Mk. IX L/45 guns that are the easiest conversion to
BL 4.7 in (120-mm) Mk.I L/45 guns, mount P Mk.I found on the Modified W Class.
3. In Step 4 replace bridge wings part B3 with WEM PE part 14, cut away the solid railings and refer back to Step 4 for the V Class Leaders for bridge details.
Use WEM PE part 44 to support the bridge wings.
4. The modified W Class appeared to launch with Director and Range Finder installed.
5. The 3” HA gun amidships was replaced by 2\two two pounder guns. The 3” deck ring of the gun mount was in between the 2 pounders.
WEM PE part 15 can be modified to work. See 13. 2 Pounder Mounting and 14. HMS Veteran for details, do not mount the 3” gun, only the gun ring.

Retrofitting HMAS Vampire to Admiralty V Leader, V & W Class Continued





The Modified W Group 2 Build

As per The W Group 1 Build with changes below:
1. HMS Veteran is a 2nd Group Modified W to the Model from the Glasgow Transport Museum can be followed. Only HMS Veteran has the compass platform, part B6, like HMS Vampire.
2. Both funnels need to be built. The fore funnel is 13 mm tall x 2.8 mm wide x 3.6 mm deep. The aft funnel is 7.9 mm tall and 2 mm in diameter. See drawing 14. HMS Veteran from V & W Class Destroyers by Antony Preston.

There are likely errors of commission and of omission due to myself but the work is likely correct in the main.

Cheers,
George

Has everyone heard about the 1/350 HMAS vampire coming out in plastic soon?
Showtime hobbies hopes to have some test shots soon.

Wow! Was that a misfire, George?

_________________
Danny DON'T "waterline"...!

What can you make out of the Tamiya 1/700 HMAS Vampire kit, without any serious scratchbuilding?

I have Tamiya's HMAS Vampire kit and WEM's etch for the V/W class. What I don't want to do is a WAIR as I already have a resin kit of Winchester for that. What I would like to do is HMAS Vampire as she was with force Z or perhaps one of the Long or Short range escort conversions.

So the starting point is the Tamiya kit, so my first question is what year is does the model represent the ship in? I've heard that the aft torpedo tubes were replaced by a 12pdr by 1941 and she may have a single 2pdr or 2 where the 12pdr was etc.

Next up is the escort conversions, are any of them easy to do just using the kit and WEM etch?

thanks
Mike

All:

I found some film clips of HMAS Vampire on the AWM website that were new to me, and that provide new visual info regarding the camo schemes she wore:

See here at the 1:55-1:59 minutes mark: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F01235/

Note that she appears to be wearing a three tone version of the scheme with the trapezoidal hull panels that she wore through part of her wartime career.

There is also a beautiful sequence of HMAS Stuart in her "rainbow" camo scheme immediately preceding the sequence of HMAS Vampire at 1:51-1:55 minutes.

And see here at the 13:48-13:55 minutes mark: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F03384/

Here she appears to be wearing some variant of the dark hull, light upperworks scheme.

I have been unable to figure out how to post stills of these film sequences, however... sorry about that. I have some screen grabs in JPEG, but don't know how to post them. If someone can explain, will be glad to do so...

Enjoy!

Mike E.

_________________
Mike E.