Calling all Benson-class & Gleaves-class DD fans

[Avery Boyer]

I'm out to design a paper model of a Benson/Gleaves class destroyer. I'll be starting off with one of the square-bridged Gleaves, although I'll certainly do others later on. I'll post updates to this thread since I'll most likely have loads of questions that need answering as I go along. I'll be designing in 1/250, and yes the kit will be available when finished. I'm just finishing up a PC and a PCE(R) and then I'll get a start on the design work.

The first question I have before I begin is about the configuration of USS Davison as per the GA plans on the HNSA site. Other than the minesweeping equipment, what modifications were made to her? Any mods done post-war? What were the differences between the DMS ships and the straight up DDs? Obviously I can do this research myself, but I thought someone here might know the answer offhand. Thanks in advance...

-Avery

[Rick E Davis]

Avery,

Answering that question would take many words ... easier to start with a couple of photos.

DAVISON (DD-618) herself on 23 January 1943 well before her conversion to DMS-37. A Federal-built Square-bridge GLEAVES.


DMS-28 HARDING (ex-DD-625) on 17 December 1944 after her conversion to a DMS. A Seattle-Tacoma built unit, note differences to the "tubs" for the twin 40-mm mounts and other minor differences when compared to DAVISON. She was in the first batch of DMS conversions that retained two twin 40-mm mounts, DAVISON was in the second batch that had two quad 40-mm mounts.


I have yet to deep dive into the configurations of the DMS units to fully answer your question about changes. The first batch of DMS conversions, like the view of HARDING, retained several items from the destroyer configuration like the Mk 4/22 (NOT Mk 12/22) radar pair on the Mk 37 director and seven single 20-mm mounts. The second batch of DMS conversions received the Anti-Kamikaze MOD with two quad 40-mm mounts and had weight reduction and other upgrades like a Mk 28 radar on the Mk 37 director. From the photos I have looked at, it appears the second batch of DMS conversions had only two twin 20-mm mounts ... before the bridge. Post-war, all operational units had Mk 28 radars as far as I can tell ... when??? Many post-war DMS only had one 40-mm mount installed.

[el Cid]

Gentlemen,

Now that I've finished my USS Harlan R Dickson (DD-708), I'm ready for a new challenge. I've never attempted a waterline display, but am contemplating a representation of Woolsey's action against U-73 in Dec '43. I really enjoyed the Dragon Gearing so would like to use one of their Gleaves for conversion to Woolsey. Can anybody provide some guidance on which Dragon kit would be most appropriate (eg. layout, armament, etc) for conversion to a late '43 Med ship?

Thanks ahead,

Keith

[solicitr]

I had hoped to get the Laffey or Buchanan, but the only one of the DMS Benson/Gleaves group my local shop was Benson in her 1945 fit.

This is a shame, because I wanted to do one of the heroic cans that fought in the Solomons crucible 1942-43, not an Atlantic ship.

OTOH, these kits have a lot of spillover parts, so- are there any of the PACFLT Bensons to which this kit can be 'adjusted' and given a 42-42 fit (hopefully with the ineffective but good-looking MS-12 Mod "leopard" camo)? Are their major structural mods that would be required for, say, Farenholt or Woodworth?

[Rick E Davis]

WOOLSEY (DD-437) was a GLEAVES class destroyer and the DML 1942 LIVERMORE kit would be the closest to her in 1942 configuration. However, WOOLSEY was upgraded during an Availability at New York Navy Yard 14-24 February 1943 with two twin 40-mm mounts. I still have not found any views of WOOLSEY in this configuration (at NARA) except for this view at Navsource ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0543701.jpg ... this would be the configuration she had until late Spring 1945.

Since the 1942 LIVERMORE kit does NOT have the components in the kit for the configuration with two twin 40-mm mounts, you have a choice to make ... you can scratch build the needed items and/or find the twin 40-mm mounts. The other choice would be to bash together a 1945 BENSON kit that does have the proper twin 40-mm mounts and after deckhouse ... with a LIVERMORE kit to get the proper stacks and midships deckhouse for a GLEAVES class destroyer. On the plus side, you would have enough components to build a 1942 BENSON.

WOOLSEY's sister, LUDLOW (DD-438) as seen in this 27 April 1943 photo, would be very close to the configuration WOOLSEY was in during this period.

[el Cid]

Thanks Rick. I still have the 20mm and 40mm mounts from the Gearing kit, so Livermore seems the way to go.

Cheers,

Keith

[Guest]

It's worth mentioning that the Benson 1945 kit includes the Gleaves-style stacks, and five 5" mounts (only one of them canvas-topped). This is just a function of using the same sprues as the other kits- in fact the kit also includes both forms of deckhouse overheads, round and square-base bridges, extended and non-extended bridge wings; in fact the Benson kit looks very close to being a kit-bash in one box.

[Solicitr]

All right, here's the good news: DML, bless 'em, has engaged in the genrous practice of making variant kits by simply adding new parts, without actually replacing any (at least, not major stuff). In other words, the Benson '45 kit pretty much includes all the preceding Benson/Gleaves kits!

After taking some time and eyestrain to compare the box contents with the fine photo reviews of the others on the site, I've reconstructed the history.

The Buchanan '42 consists of Sprues A-K (minus H), plus upper hull, mounting base, decals and PE. This gave them a basis.

For Laffey, DML added Sprues L and M: L carries the square Benson-style stacks and their fittings, while M has the slanted deckhouse extension, and the square-front lower bridge together with the inboard-mounted 20mm tubs. Note that these parts are all alternates to parts on Sprues A and B; the round stacks and bridge front are still included.

Livermore left out L and M, not needing them for an early Gleaves, but added the heretofore absent H- the canvas-topped 5" mount- and added new Sprue N, an alternate after deckhouse roof with two 20mm tubs.

The Buchanan '45 Tokyo Bay special edition included Sprues P and Q1; the latter is merely the twin Bofors mounts. P (actually marked "USS Buchanan") carries the later after deckhouse with the Bofors tubs, and the extended bridge wings and signal bridge with outboard indicators. This kit (only) also includes a unique PE sheet that has new splinter shields for the forward 20mm, and Sprue P carries forming mandrels for them. P also has the K-guns.

To make Benson in her Pacific fit following her last wartime overhaul, DML simply had to put all of the above in one box, except the Livermore-specific Sprue N, together with a new Sprue Q2. Q2 contains, principally, new deckhouse roofs: the after with twin Bofors tubs, and the midships with the book-matched p-shaped 20mm shields. (DML did however remove the late-Buchanan after deckhouse roof from Sprue P). This variant has the low pedestal searchlight mounting, rather than the tall or short lattice tower. There may be some other pieces missing for building Buchanan or Laffey(and similar ships), but I haven't noticed them.

[Rick E Davis]

Thanks for the heads-up on the BENSON kits components. I have looked through the kit and knew there were a lot of extra components from earlier kits, but I missed that the kit has the GLEAVES class "round" stacks.

For doing a mid-war early group GLEAVES class unit with twin 40-mm mounts, the BENSON kit looks like the way to go.

[Cadman]

It's worth mentioning that the Benson 1945 kit includes the Gleaves-style stacks, and five 5" mounts (only one of them canvas-topped). This is just a function of using the same sprues as the other kits- in fact the kit also includes both forms of deckhouse overheads, round and square-base bridges, extended and non-extended bridge wings; in fact the Benson kit looks very close to being a kit-bash in one box.

It should be noted that the included funnel is the one with the molded on ladders and piping.

With the 45 Tokyo Bay Buchanan off the market, this is your best bet to mix and match parts to build most any Gleaves class. It will obviously make most any Benson class ship already. Well except for those prewar versions.

[Avery Boyer]

Thanks for the reply Rick, that information is a great help. I still haven't decided which ship I'll be going for, but right now I'm thinking of just doing Davison herself. I have the best reference material for her, although I really like Harding's camo. That brings me to another question, if the ships were built by the same yard (in this case Seattle Tacoma) then is it safe to use photos of other Seattle Tacoma built ships for designing Harding? How similar were ships built by the same yard, were they literally identical unless modified during service? Of course, I want to design both ships prior to conversion to the DMS config. Thanks again for the help.

[Rick E Davis]

Avery,

You know that there were twenty "Square-Bridge" GLEAVES class destroyers built to two slightly different configurations: Sixteen to the original layout similar to the basic repeat GLEAVES and Four (DD645-648) to a revised layout with staggered 20-mm and 40-mm mounts. Federal-built six units to the initial configuration (labeled as G-IIIA below) and the four revised configuration units (labeled as G-IIIB). SeaTac-built ten units to the initial configuration. All of the initial configuration built by both builders were "basically" the same WHEN BUILT AND DELIVERED.

The six Federal-built units built to the initial configuration (DD618-623) were delivered in the same aft deckhouse configuration as seen in the photo of DAVISON, except that when initially delivered, they all had only four 20-mm guns installed (two before the bridge and two amidships just forward of the aft deckhouse). Not too long afterwards, they had three additional 20-mm guns installed as seen in the DAVISON image (one before the bridge on an elevated platfrom and the amidships 20-mm guns were put into pairs port and starboard). HOWEVER, EDWARDS (DD-619) had an unique configuration when she was updated with the additional three 20-mm guns at Puget Sound Navy Yard ... different than the other units all stationed on the East Coast. The first two units (DD493-494) built at SeaTac, at least, were delivered in basically the same configuration as the Federal-built first configuration units (DD618-623), however the remaining units (DD495-497 and 624-628) had a revised aft deckhouse bulwark for the twin 40-mm mounts and Mk 49/Mk 51 directors. These SeaTac-built units also were up gunned ... some of the last built units may have been delivered with seven 20-mm (photos are lacking) to seven 20-mm guns.

However, after service, changes in configuration between units occurred. At least two units had HF/DF antennas installed in place of their SC radar for a period of time. ASW Mousetrap was installed on some units as well.

DD-618 Davison G-IIIA Federal 11-Sep-42
DD-619 Edwards G-IIIA Federal 18-Sep-42
DD-620 Glennon G-IIIA Federal 8-Oct-42
DD-621 Jeffers G-IIIA Federal 5-Nov-42
DD-622 Maddox G-IIIA Federal 31-Oct-42
DD-623 Nelson G-IIIA Federal 26-Nov-42

DD-645 Stevenson G-IIIB Federal 15-Dec-42
DD-646 Stockton G-IIIB Federal 11-Jan-43
DD-647 Thorn G-IIIB Federal 1-Apr-43
DD-648 Turner G-IIIB Federal 16-Apr-43

DD-493 Carmick G-IIIA SeaTac 28-Dec-42
DD-494 Doyle G-IIIA SeaTac 27-Jan-43
DD-495 Endicott G-IIIA SeaTac 25-Feb-43
DD-496 McCook G-IIIA SeaTac 15-Mar-43
DD-497 Frankford G-IIIA SeaTac 31-Mar-43
DD-624 Baldwin G-IIIA SeaTac 30-Apr-43
DD-625 Harding G-IIIA SeaTac 25-May-43
DD-626 Satterlee G-IIIA SeaTac 1-Jul-43
DD-627 Thompson G-IIIA SeaTac 10-Jul-43
DD-628 Welles G-IIIA SeaTac 16-Aug-43

EDWARDS (DD-619) in about December 1943 showing the unique 20-mm bulwarks amidships.


MADDOX (DD-622) on 17 Novemebr 1942 a couple of weeks after commissioning showing the original delivery configuration.


HARDING (DD-625) on 6 December 1943 showing the configuration with seven 20-mm and equipped with an HF/DF array.


THORN (DD-647) on 28 May 1943 showing the staggered twin 40-mm and two 20-mm configuration.

[Avery Boyer]

Fantastic, thanks so much for rundown of the various configurations. That clears up a lot.

I'll probably have more questions in the future, but that does it for now. I'll get a start on the design next month.

Thanks again!

[Solicitr]

The Official Diagrams for the various Measure 32 patterns of course simply apply masses of color over basic line drawings of the ship. In practice, though, to what extent was the camo scheme carried over to the various bits and pieces of gear? I wonder in part because of the USN division of labor where it comes to painting; whereas Deck division (bosun's mates and deck seamen) were responsible for the weather decks and bulkheads, the torpedo tubes belonged to T-Div, the gun mounts to the gunner's mates etc. The 5" gunhouses of course got the dazzle treatment; but what about smaller fittings? Did they go so far as to paint the upper surfaces of, say, the torp tubes Deck Blue? And was it the practice during WWII, as it was postwar, to paint DC gear red?

It does strike me that the inside faces of doors likely weren't repainted when dazzle was applied to the outside, but remained in their original color; would these have been Light Gray to match an original Measure 2 or Measure 12, or painted an interior color (white?)?

[Rick E Davis]

Solicitr,

In general, if the item got painted, it was painted in the camo scheme for that location. Many individual pieces of equipment that weren't suppose to be painted because that would impair it's operation (brass valves, etc), were left as is. Yes they painted the tops of torpedo tubes deck blue. Look at the pages in this thread ... there are many images of the torpedo tubes on Ms 22 ships where the tops were painted ... the demarcation line varies as to how far down the sides of the outside tubes, but they were painted. On the dazzle schemes, I'm less sure. It appears to me in many photos that Atlantic based destroyers painted in dazzle, didn't apply a dazzle pattern on the decks. On Pacific based ships, the deck pattern was applied. These are general statements, I'm not a camo expert, just observations form having a large number of images available and I don't know what the "truth" is for ALL dazzle painted ships. I don't think the Depth Charge gear was painted red during the war ... at least not in total ... just matched to the camo scheme for that ship.

[DanCinSD]

I was looking thru the #31 USS Buchanon pictorial today, and was amazed at some of the detail photos where I saw that the depth charges were painted in camo. They were deck blue on top and the verticle color on the sides, this was on the 300 and 600 lb charges.... I bet some sailor was happy to paint those! pg 41 and pg 51.....

[Rick E Davis]

Look at the images I have posted elsewhere in this thread. It does seem that someone was following directives to the letter. This seems to be most common with the Ms 22 scheme in the Atlantic.

[les]

My guess would be that they were painted as stored on the ship. The side facing the deck would probably be the color they originally came. It wouldn't matter what color they were once they hit the water.

[Rick E Davis]

Les,

You may be right for many cases, but they DID repaint the whole depth charges sometimes. In the Pacific where they worn Ms 21 for much of the war, the D/C's were painted overall 5-N. I get a smile every time I look at this photo.

"SMITH!!!! WHY DIDN'T YOU PUT SOMETHING DOWN BEFORE YOU PAINTED THE DEPTH CHARGES?"

"But Chief." "What the heck, we are going to paint the deck anyway ... aren't we?"

[Timmy C]

Did they carry depth charge reloads internally as well? If so, those would have been painted in something other than the external camo pattern.