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 Post subject: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:19 pm 
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hey,
while doing some research on this beast... I see she was never outfitted to fire Tomahawks..
Why??????
Was this class placed on the decomm list because of this or because of the MK-13 launcher she had fore and aft..
No helo capabilities other then VERTREP..
So since the navy is hurting for ships, I thought,, Just a Thought..
What if she and the S.C could have been saved.. what would be upgraded HMMMM?>>>

1. Remove the ASROC, and MK-13.. replace with a VLS.. (forward only) I think the FLT I Burke module would do nicely...
2. Remove the Stern launcher and add helo handling area/ hangar space for a two Sh-60...
3. Upgrade electronics to current tycho class refitt, along with added RAMS, Bushmasters, and ESSM's
4. Upgrade the forward gun to an 8 inch and upgrade the stern to current 5 inch being used on the FLT IIA... POST DDG-83...

This beast has potential...


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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:05 pm 
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I liked the California – one of the two best cruises I had (Kidd was the other). Crew was outstanding; ship was in great shape (final cruise, 1998), very capable with NTU. Loved that these ships could hold five SM-2 in the terminal phase at once – no other vessel could do that.

The only gripe was the 5” mounts, which, because they were such early production and had so many years on them, had become less than reliable. Mount 51 was sacrificed as spare parts for mount 52. (Why mount 52 and not mount 51? Because 52 matched the arc of the SPQ-9, which was placed on the after mast). She had the first and second production MK 45 127mm/54 guns. The only older MK 45 was/is in Dahlgren.

These were the first ships built with a hull form to exploit nuclear power – their hulls were designed for top speed, not cruising efficiency. Really cool to cross the gangway and see the hull come back to the deck amidships. She looked fast pier side.

However – these ships were very cramped, and showed a rather specific design philosophy. That design philosophy was the ‘Rickover attitude’ where when you took a nuclear ship to sea, you were not actually taking a combatant vessel for a mission, you were taking two of ADM Rickover’s reactors out for a spin and all other vessels functions were secondary. My Father had told me about that one, and I got to live it on California.

So, California was basically two D2Gs with weapons added at either end, sensors put above, stuffed into the fastest hull they could design, with crew littered in wherever there was space. I was in OE berthing which was pretty far forward and down – while I worked near the top of the aft superstructure.

I had asked about Tomahawk while aboard, and the general consensus was that the ABL in the former ASROC position would have worked, but at the time of her NTU refit the Spruance class was getting VLS for 61 cells apiece, so fitting the 8 Tomahawk to two ships didn’t seem like that good of a bargain when you were certainly going to have one of those 24 VLS Spruance in the group. I was left with the idea that topweight was a concern on the vessels, so that may have been another major reason.

After the NTU refit/refueling, ABLs could have gone in place of the ASROC and the reload house (California retained her reload house, South Carolina had hers removed during refit) – I don’t imagine two ABLs were anywhere near the weight of the reload house, weapons, and ASROC launcher, and in both cases it would all be carried in a similar location on the same level.

Having spent so much time within the hull and seeing the cramped layout, any VLS would have required major work.

Assuming you were willing to do that major work, I’d mount the Mk 71 in the forward Mk 13 position (weight for a Mk 13 loaded with 37 SM-2 is comparable to the Mk 71) and put a 64 cell VLS roughly where mount 51 came from. You could not place the VLS farther aft than that, as reactor 1 is immediately below where the ASROC box used to be. Naturally, in today’s small/fast boat threat environment, I’d try and add a smaller caliber in the former ASROC position on top of a deckhouse (as in the Burke thread – Mk110 if I can, MK46 If I can’t make Mk110 fit)
Aft I’d remove mount 52 and the Mk 13, and try and get 32 more cells in mount 52’s place (at the 01 level) with a hangar behind it to service the aft helo pad. I’d stretch the transom if needed for the helo pad (ala long-hull Perry class), and add another light gun above the hangar if possible.

And I'd find a way to move the friggin SPQ-9 to the forward mast to match the firing arc of the Mk 71...


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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:00 am 
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WOW..
Thanks for the input..
So I am assuming that both ships suffered these issues..

Ok here is where I am lacking current knowledge so I will throw this out and see if it sticks.. as they say...

Since the forward reactor is located just under the ASROC and reload house.. That limits the space for a VLS....

So Therefore the VLS would have to be similiar to what the JMSDF and the RAN use where the cells are bulit in housing that is 3/4 above the deck.. My thoughts is that it would have to be no higher then the ASORC Storage housing with the cali still had...

Replace the forward Mount 13 with the MK71..

Since the harpoons are a plug and use weapon system I think they should be removed from forward platform and either add the Bush masters with NUKLA lauchers or an SRAM in the Center...

Add an additional Transom for helo ops...
Then add an additional VLS between the Hangar like they do on JMSDF ATAGO Class or Burkes.. add a SRAM and the harpoons in that general area also...

Since I work in 1/350 scale only.. 1/700 is too small..
I have the Calif from Commanders a very nice kit but it represent the class in the 1985 Config. I feel this would be a simple conversion for the most part. However for the plug which would be used to add for the helo deck and hangar space.. Which stern would you use.. I have few thought about using a Tycho/Spruance stern or Flt IIA Burke.. I am not sure which would work better... I think the cut off point would be at the stern MK-13 launcher..
Your thoughts and suggestions...


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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:39 pm 
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Location: Adelaide,SouthOZ
From what I have read all the Nuke cruisers got the chop due 2 their high manning requirements.
I am building an RC 1/72 CGN-36 USS California to sail with my CGN-9 USS Long Beach I had planned on doing an upgraded ship but in the real world the California class this could not have been easily done. The Mk-13 while old is a reliable launcher (RAN still use em on our Perry's) and has a good rate of fire.
The simplest (ie cheapest) upgrade would be something like a 32 cell VLS similar to the RAN's 8 cell used on our FFG's upgrade in place of the ASROC reload house, You could load it with ESSM's, VLasroc, TLAMS etc. I would move the Harpoons 2 just behind the new VLS in front of the Bridge (like on the Virginia's) and put a pair of Bushmaster's in the Midships position (port'n'stbd).
With adding a hanger hull plug aft I would say this is not the best place for a plug!!( due 2 the pesky prop shafts) Best spot 2 cut a ship in half is the middle. You could add a 50' hull plug there and remodel the whole aft superstructure 2 incorporate a Tico or Burke style hanger while retaining aft weapons. This would take her to 646' long with a beam of 61' for a length 2 beam ratio of 10.5 !! She would be even faster thru the water with same power plant

Cheers Bruce :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:

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1/72 RC USS SAIPAN LHA2
1/72 RC USS JOHN PAUL JONES DDG53
1/72 RC USS SHARK SSN591
1/72 RC USS SEAWOLF SSN21
1/72 RC USS ALBANY CG10


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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:48 pm 
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I would not add a plug. Note that the Perry’s extended the helo deck by angling the transom.

Clearing Mount 52 and the aft Mk 13 should clear enough space for SH-60 sized pad and hangar for two. I estimate that the fantail from aft of the existing superstructure to the transom should be sufficient length, and 52 should be removed because it would be wooded anyway, not a problem VLS has.

I like the Harpoons forward of the Bridge, and allowing the forward VLS to be at the 01 level would reduce the below deck work needed, but all that weight higher up does concern me.

Operational cost was the main driver in decommissioning all the CGNs. They require more personnel, and more expensive personnel to run for capability that was perceived to be less than an Aegis cruiser. And those expensive NUC qualified personnel were in high demand by the aviation (CVNs) and Submarine communities – the two most powerful lobbies within the Navy.

HvyCgn9, are you trying to do all of my ships in 1/72?!?


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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:18 pm 
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Thanks..

I am still new to this shipbucket program.. But found this their files..
So now am getting the picture.. good thing I left the surface navy for the medical community in the army... To much waste...
Since I have now have an idea of what to work with..

So let me summarize the suggestions to date..
Remove the forward weapons
Replace the the Forward MK-13 with a MK-71
ADD A VLS Deck and Harpoon deck.. ADD NUKLA and BUSHMASTER to area MIDSHIPS...
Then replace the AFT Structure with Hangar and VLS... Keep the aft 5" very similar to the TYCHO current config..
This Beast has a lot of potential...
If I can work out the bug with the drawing program... I will submit the rough drawings... It may end up being a cut & paste.
Thanks for great INPUT all


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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:03 am 
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SumGui wrote:

HvyCgn9, are you trying to do all of my ships in 1/72?!?


That depends Mate!! IF ya served on CG-10 USS Albany too then I'd have the lot!!
I am doing a 'WHIFF" USS Long Beach (CGN-9 fitting out), a 1998 config USS California (CGN-36 building), USS Albany (CG-10 planning stages, possibly in her final config or a 'whif') all are RC 1/72 scale its more FUN !!!!

Cheers Bruce :woo_hoo:

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1/72 RC USS CALIFORNIA CGN36
1/72 RC USS SAIPAN LHA2
1/72 RC USS JOHN PAUL JONES DDG53
1/72 RC USS SHARK SSN591
1/72 RC USS SEAWOLF SSN21
1/72 RC USS ALBANY CG10


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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:38 am 
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Ah, ya lost me there. No Albany for me.

I thought maybe Truxtun was next!

I really should look into doing a PC in 1/72...


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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:50 pm 
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You could probably make it RC'd as well mate!!

Hey I had considered doing the Truxtun but went for the bigger California instead.

Cheers N Merry Xmas

Bruce

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1/72 RC USS CALIFORNIA CGN36
1/72 RC USS SAIPAN LHA2
1/72 RC USS JOHN PAUL JONES DDG53
1/72 RC USS SHARK SSN591
1/72 RC USS SEAWOLF SSN21
1/72 RC USS ALBANY CG10


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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:27 pm 
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It came 2 my attention on another site that remodelling fwd weapons fit would be problematic in real life as beneath the ASROC launcher and reload house is one of her reactor's!! A strike length VLS would be 2 long for the available space, I would keep the mk13 and fit a later missile if possible.
Seasick made a good point in the Mod. Sprucan thread on fitting SPQ-9b in place of SPG-60 I will have 2 on my Cali. One on the fwd mast below the SPS-48 and a 9b in place of the 9a on the Aft mast, with a FLiR/TV imager like the Burkes have in place of the SPG-60.

Anyone have any solid dimensions for the SPQ-9B ??

Cheers Bruce

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building:
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1/72 RC USS CALIFORNIA CGN36
1/72 RC USS SAIPAN LHA2
1/72 RC USS JOHN PAUL JONES DDG53
1/72 RC USS SHARK SSN591
1/72 RC USS SEAWOLF SSN21
1/72 RC USS ALBANY CG10


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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:57 pm 
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The AN/SPQ-9B looks just like the AN/SPQ-9A on the surface of its randome. Looks the same. Different antenna under the randome though.

----------------

The main value of the South Carolina and California is as AAW vessels. If the ship is being refit around 1995 the Mk13 launchers were and still are a highly reliable system for launching Standard missiles. Adding the AN/SPQ-9B in place of the A is fairly easy and the AN/SPG-60 might as well be landed. The Mk190 gunfire control system should be able to use one of the AN/SPG-51D to track surface targets and the utility of the AN/SPG-60 as a back up missile tracking/illumination radar has been eroded away to practically nothing. Besides adding the AN/SPQ-9B you'll probably want to add some more IR detectors to the ship. (you can see pictures of the current devices in USNI Naval Weapons Systems by Norman Friedman). While the AN/SPQ-9B will tighten up the defense against very low altitude missile threats, you don't run your radars 24/7 so passive detection can't hurt. Two Mk49 RAM launchers should be fit, with the best possible firing arcs. Place the two Phalanx Block 1B in the weak spots of the firing arcs of the RAM launchers.

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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:23 pm 
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SPQ-9B doesn't use a radome though, only the Alpha model used the spherical dome.

http://www.armybase.us/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/AN-SPQ-9B-Radar-U.S.-Naval-Sea-Systems-Command-U.S.-Navy.jpg

Bravo doesn't take up much more space then Alpha did in its radome. You can see a Bravo model on the Sprucan (in the same spot as the Alpha) in that photo and then a close up of the antennae.

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1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:35 pm 
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Cliffy B all I see in that link is a smiley face in a Helmet?? no pic!!

Bruce

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1/72 RC USS SAIPAN LHA2
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1/72 RC USS SEAWOLF SSN21
1/72 RC USS ALBANY CG10


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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:51 pm 
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ok,
Then how about adding a hangar with some VLS in between ... Since the reactors are up front, add a larger platform like they did on the SoCal, and add something plug and shoot like Four Sets of Harpoons.. I am still working on some drawings of this beast.. The trouble is I hate to do surgery on my ISW kit.. currently looking into a 1/200 hull from Nichimo JMSDF kit it about 29 inches/76cm in length which would scale about the right size and shape for the Cali...

Here is my game plan to date..
1. increase the harpoons to four sets of launcher vs two...
2. Add helo storage and handling...
3. update the electronics
4. Add a TACTCAL VLS...

Still considering the guns upgrade to the Current config on the burkes or replace the forward with a MK-71 and relocate the stern mount to a config similiar to the tycho config.. your thoughts...


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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:52 pm 
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Weird...it works for me... Here's the page it was from. Right click he photo and click "view image" for a larger version.

http://www.armybase.us/2010/02/northrop-grumman-begins-full-rate-production-anspq-9b-shipboard-radar-systems-for-u-s-navy/

Here's another shot a Bravo on a Tico.

Image

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Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984


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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:01 pm 
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thanks, I still need help with the shipbucket program.. I can't seem to cut and past objects to hull once I make the necessary changes.. any suggestion???


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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:09 pm 
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as promised here is a rough sketch of my thoughts..

As you can see I borrowed a lot from a KIDD class DDG.. Why not use what works..

I left space aft of the flight deck.. several options could go their...

1. a large VLS module with a load equal to a burkes forward and rear cells combined..

2. Another 5" gun mount

3. Extend the Flight deck, for UAV's with a UAV housing....

But I left Space open above the O-3 level... Don't know what could go there,, maybe some more electronics... NUKLA Launchers

If the VLS option is the way to go on the stern.. Then I would replace the additional Harpoons in that space..

As I said I still a novice at this drawing thing...
One last thing is I plan on building this beast... I have the old Nichimo 1/200 DDA-164 takatsuki coming for the hull.. it measures out to be approx 76 cm which would be a little longer but more important the shape of the hull seems close enough for the cali.. as I said I have heart failure thinking of cutting up an ISW kit just to use the main deck and below..


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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:25 am 
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The Kidd class had several uncomfortable compromises in its design. The large deck houses below the Kidd class AN/SPG-51 radars wouldn't be necessary if they hadn't just been literally stuck on to the design. If your going to rebuild the California's superstructure much of the heavy equipment could be located lower to reduce top weight. The mainmast on the Kidd class was a Spruance class mainmast strengthened to hold an AN/SPS-48C radar. The original design was for a AN/SPS-40 radar which is much lighter. The AN/SPS-48G on your California should be on top of a pyramid type mast. It should appear like the upper half of the mast on the later Nimitz class CVN for the AN/SPS-49 radars.

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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:17 am 
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Thanks,
As I said still new to this electronic drawing...

So what are the thoughts about just having a rear VLS and keeping the Hangar from the spruance/TYCO design...
and go with something like the CGN-42 design that Dave purposed for the forward Deck houses...


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 Post subject: Re: cgn-36 Upgrades..
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:12 pm 
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I would keep most of California's existing Superstructure if I was going to do a radical rebuild the reason being that unless a modification program (in real world) had an unlimited budget, a Superstructure rebuild wouldn't be high on the priority list. It would be Weapons, Sensors, propulsion, etc.
I would (For a radical rebuild) have fwd Mk71 in the 5"Mk45 position, Keep the Fwd Mk13 upgraded to SM2 BlockIV (if Possible), Fit a TAC length VLS in the ASROC reload house (so it doesn't stick into the reactor space) would the wt of the old ASROC reloads+magazine be equal to a VLS??loaded with VL ASROC, ESSM's, etc. And have 4 Harpoon mk141's (16 missiles) between Bridge and VLS housing.
Aft end I would cut back the superstructure and build in a Burke style hanger with Strike VLS (with SM6, and Tomahawks) between the Helo bays. Delete the aft Mk13 and move the aft mk71 to the mk13 position.
Mast's and such don't need changing as they are already designed 2 support heavy radar's.

Cheers Bruce

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building:
1/72 RC USS LONG BEACH CGN9
1/72 RC USS CALIFORNIA CGN36
1/72 RC USS SAIPAN LHA2
1/72 RC USS JOHN PAUL JONES DDG53
1/72 RC USS SHARK SSN591
1/72 RC USS SEAWOLF SSN21
1/72 RC USS ALBANY CG10


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