The Ship Model Forum

Smoke -

The good news is that you won't have to. The Banner/Panda/MiniHobby/Etc 1/350 Arizona is pretty near the top of our development list. Expect to see a product in early 2011 for this kit.

It represents another effort that we are learning about - and that is scaling from one kit to another, moving from one ship in the class to another, and moving from one brand to another.

Since this is a forum for discussion, I guess I will go into a little bit of depth here to explain this (even though it's not about my Borodino WIP).

Naturally, the biggest expense for us is the engineering of the product. it takes many hours, spread over weeks or months, to get a perfect fit for a wood deck on an existing kit. It can take 20-30 revisions to get a fit that we are satisfied with. (One other side note that I will insert here without specifics and without further comment: "I have purchased decks from other manufacturers to study them, and am appalled at the poor fit; their 'final product' would NOT pass our in-development Quality Assurance process." End of comment.) The material is relatively cheap, and the cutting is all done by computers anyway. There is some expense in postage and packaging, but the biggest concern - by far - is the time spent in engineering.

So we look to take shortcuts where we can, and re-use the engineering where we can. For example, the Eastern Express and Zvezda Borodino Class (Borodino, Oriel, Knyaz Suvarov) all use the exact same molds for the decks (much to the consternation of the hobbyists who note that these are really just "Borodino-TYPE" ships.) But for me, I can make one product and it works for six different kits (or, at least six different LABELS on kits! ) The ICM Konig, Markgraf and Grosser Kurfurst are all the same molds, too.

But there are MASSIVE differences between the Tamiya Missouri and New Jersey, to be expected on ships rendered 40 years apart in their service. But also between the KGV and Prince of Wales, too - rendered only a few years apart. The differences in the decks are HUGE in terms of custom cutting. Some things, such as hull outlines, barbette placement, etc, can translate from one plan to another. But other things have to be drawn up from scratch and completely re-engineered when doing other ships of the same class for the most part. Sometimes, like with the Borodinos and Konigs the kits don't go into that level of detail so we get lucky and can multi-task product, but this is the exception rather than the rule.

Amazingly, doing the same ship in the same scale, rendered at the same time but by different manufacturers results in a requirement for totally separate designs. Yes, some kits like the 1/350 Arizona have been around for a long time and bear many different brands and labels. But others, like the 1/350 Tamiya Bismarck and 1/350 Revell Bismarck are amazingly different. There are different anchor arrangements, different ammo box placement, even different overall deck shapes - so one cut wood deck cannot possibly work on both - thus requiring two separate products.

Next up we have an area that we are studying, and the Arizona is a perfect example of that. We will be doing the 1/200 Trumpeter Arizona first (in fact, engineering has already started on that one) and once we are done with that we hope to be able to scale it to 1/350 for the classic multi-branded kit in that size. Of course, we'll have to make the adjustments to see how they fit, but we're hoping that we might be able to salvage SOME of the engineering to be an "adjustment" process versus a complete "ground-up" process. We'll let you know about that.

One other interesting line of kits that I have just come across are the KANGNAM 1/400 kits out of Korea. It really looks like they took the 1/350 Tamiya plans and used those as a basis for creating new molds in 1/400. I need to look a bit more closely at those - but at cursory glance it appears that's what they did. If so, could I just scale down our Tamiya decks a bit and have product to fit the Kangnam kits? Of course, the width of the laser cut doesn't scale, so we'd have to make some minute adjustments there I suspect - but could I be able to take a super short cut to arrive at an offering for the 1/400 Kangnam kits? Only time will tell.

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So where do the two extras go? In the fighting tops? On the forward searchlight deck? Poking out of a hammock stowage? (I've been following the CASF thread with much interest!)

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Looks like battle damage from a huge enemy pencil!

Hello John,

thanks for your prompt answer.
You really saved my day.

Greetings

smoke

I wanted to give you all an update on a side project that I have going on, and that's a test of Laser-Cut Planking. I am hoping that I can get a system in place where I can provide sheets of planks that can be custom cut and laid down by the eaches. These would use the same incredibly thin, thermal fleece backed wood as my standard cut decks.

The first test was promising, but wrong. Just for a starting point, we placed the laser cuts as far apart as our printed plank lines, and you can see the result here. The laser cut is a LOT wider than our print line, leaving very little plank to work with! So we're going to have to space those out quite a bit. Also interesting is the wider cut at the ends of the planks - since the laser is not up to speed when it starts a line, it burns hotter and wider... So we'll have to accomodate for that, too.

We're working on it, and I'll send more updates as progres is made.

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I wanted to provide some update shots of where I am at on my Borodino. I now have both decks glued down (All three if you count the walkabout!) and they fit really well. I tried Gator Grip for the lower two decks, and it worked pretty good; I had a little bit of peeloff here and there, but I was able to inject a spot of glue under the deck with a syringe (the Gator Grip folks sell those, and they are HIGHLY recommended! ) and that fixed the problem straight away.

For the upper deck I tried to use Testors Liquid Cement, and that was drying faster than I could coat the deck. So I ended up using regular Testors Red Tube glue - spreading that around, and that worked really good, too. It provided a good amount of tackiness and some stiffness combined with slow drying times. Much better that the liquid cement for large pieces.

I have also learned that the Borodino kit is... Umm... interesting. It is a very tricky ship with lots of things connecting to other things, and I don't think it is very well suited for staged building. What I mean by that is on a lot of ships, they are just like layer cakes, and you can work on different sections of superstructure and then just stack them all up when they're all complete.

The Borodino has lots of things that connect through other pieces and onto the hull when you least expect it. I had a problem where the WEM brass had me cut some access hatches for ladders, but I put them too close to the edge and had them overlap a bulkhead that I had to install at a later stage. Ouch. (I was able to solve that by shifting the bulkhead over a bit - it's internal and not visible from the outside, so while I might have offended the Historical Accuracy Gods, I think I am okay with the Overall Aesthetically Pleasing Gods. (But judging from the CASF thread, the Historical Accuracy Gods are probably spitting mad over the Borodino kit anyway! ) The trouble-making cutouts for the staircases can be seen to either side of the funnel. There is an outer bulkhead that you have to glue in place in front of the hammock stowage, so you need to be really careful to place that staircase hole between that bulkhead and the boiler room skylights. Interestingly, it leaves very little room for the crew to walk that passage with the staircase in there. Perhaps just another Borodino mystery...

And there were some issues of the angle of the tumblehome hull, and not using the superstructure pieces for alignment when I let them set, which was another mistake. But, apart from that, it's coming together pretty well.

I am very pleased, though, with the look of the deck. It doesn't get in the way of assembly and I am now seeing what I had hoped for - and that is that the various fittings and features break up the grain of the wood making it look much more like a scale deck. Once I add the brass railings, I think the illusion will be complete.

Here are some photos...

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Hi John- she's looking very good. I think the gray roofs are not correct- there seems to be a lot of that gray color in the instructions but not much support for it being correct. I painted mine black. But I painted my inner bulwarks white and that's controversial too.

I'm on the fence about wood decks. I haven't seen a set yet that I thought was worth the time and money to replace a plastic deck. If you make a go at this, I would suggest that you test market a little.

The biggest difficulty is overcoming the out of scale grain and fiber texture. I modeled for a long time in 1/160 railroading, where laser cut products really made a splash. After a fair amount of frustration I switched back to styrene for scratch building. And for finishing, there still needs to be a scale plank legth. The light/ dark running the length of the ship don't look right to me.

I look forward to seeing ideas of how to solve those problems.

A great subject would be the Heller 1/100 Victory....

I think for both of us we're just going to have to go with a "Borodino-Type Paint Scheme" as there are still so many questions. I am just going to go with a combination of what the instructions say with what I believe to be correct and pick and choose the parts that I think will just look best. I wanted the gray roofs to stand out as a different color between the boats; I felt that black would be lost down there. It may be right or wrong, but I think it will work and it's not too unreasonable. (No pink battleships here!)

As for the 1/100 Victory... Hmmm... Plastic Sailing Ships. I hadn't thought about that. I know there is a big Constitution kit, too, that might be a great subject. Well, you got the ol' brain spinning now!

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Ditto on the what looks right. I painted my deck houses brown wood to match the museum model. I painted the interior bulwarks white, all to keep it from being a black hole.

The Heller Victory model has four decks, each about 24" long, and a poop deck about 12" long. The visible ones are the poop, quarterdeck and the middle section of the upper gun deck, through the openings between the skid beams where the boats rest. I've got all of the dimensions somewhere, but basically the planks are oak and 9" wide by 30' or so long, except for the kingplank in the center which is about 12". On sailing ships, there's a definite series of patterns to the staggering of the plank ends, which is important to modelers.
Making wood replacement decks is a chore, because the decks have camber and sweep, at least on an accurate model. Wood overlay plank by plank is difficult because the cannons sit too high in the ports. Even a rectangular sheet of your thin planking would be a very welcome thing. I'd be happy to help if you ever decide to develop such a thing. That kit is OOP however the big Constitution is very popular.
Again, I think the thinness of the material is a big plus, and at 1/96 to 1/100 or so, the concerns I have about grain are certainly reduced.

There's no mystery really, it is onen of the kits errors. The kit makers made the funnel bases too wide and put the skylights where the ladders should reach the spardeck, leaving little room for the ladders.

red = funnel base
blue = skylight

"a" was how the ship was

"b" is how the kit is.

There. I fixed for you.

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John:

Greetings. I think your wood decks are excellent! I second Bondoman's suggestion. Make some for the large plastic sailing ship model kits. Revell did the 1/96 scale Constitution, Cutty Sark, Kearsarge, Alabama and Thermopylae. Heller did the Victory and numerous 1/150 scale ships such as the Preussen. The Revell's really need a replacement deck as the main decks were all in several pieces leaving a seam between each section to sand and rescribe. I think there would be a big market there as these kits were produced for decades! You could even do some of the deck houses. Also no one that I know of produces any after market parts for any of the sailing ship models.

Sincerely

Michael Lacey

They were on the upper aft bridge on Borodino, 2 pairs rather than 1 on the plans



The Borodino plan with only 18 47mm guns to compare. This was the plan I was familiar with first and used to follow them as I had no clear photos of this area at the time.

I also now rememeber that these plans are also missing the extra pair put on the forward bridge. The kit I think includes both pairs, something they got right!


Well, I'm not that bad (I hope) But I doubt there will be another Borodino type in 1/350 and it's a pity that this one is not as good as I'd wished.

First of all, no... You are not that bad. Actually, I find your posts here incredibly valuable. I will use your insights and add the two extra guns. I am afraid that it is far too late to narrow the structures under the stacks to make a walkway underneath there, but that will be our little secret.

Although this is not a top-of-the-line kit, it does present certain challenges and there is great enjoyment that comes from solving them. I have not built a ship of this era before, and I think it's great that we have this kit in 1/350. I have the Hasegawa Mikasa waiting in the wings, and the Glencoe Oregon in 1/225 (I think). But pre-dreadnoughts seem awfully difficult to come by. And for that matter, early dreadnoughts are too. We have the ICM Konigs, and Aoshima Konig (Come on! Why do the same ship twice when there are so many others to choose from?!) but that's about it - apart from the Arizona in 1941 configuration.

I think we have WWII pretty well covered - certainly German, Japanese and American battleships. And there are good kits of the KGVs, Hood, Repulse, Richileiu. Toss in the Roma, Queen Elizabeth, Fuso which are scheduled to be released - and now you're down to the fringe players in the various WWII navies. I'd love to see a Rodney, and a 1944 Tennessee, for example... But if I wanted to do World War Two ships, I have literally dozens of choices.

Meanwhile, there is a huge gaping hole of World War I ships from the great fleets available in 1/350 styrene. Any idea why that is? Do you think that with the centennial of World War I approaching that the model makers will start to render some of those ships in 1/350?

Thanks again for all your help. Know that it is greatly, GREATLY appreciated.

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Because they're the same kit, except Aoshima threw in a PE fret and jacked up the price

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Really? WOW! Jacked up the price from a list of $76.95 to $179.00! That's pretty significant.

I was looking to get the Aoshima kit to study it for a possible product, but I guess I can save myself well over a hundred bucks now. Is it some spectacular set of etched brass? I could by the sets from White Ensign, Tom's AND Gold Medal - three full frets of brass - for less than a hundred bucks...

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I'm not sure where you're seeing the $179 price - Hobby Search is selling it for a decent $83 (hmm, cheaper than I thought):
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10075817

You can also see the parts and PE fret and instructions there as well.

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For quick price checks I always go to ScaleHobbyist.com. They show the list price and their offering price. They sometimes have really good prices, sometimes a little high. But the best thing about their site is their amazing search feature - you can zoom in on kits by scale, nation, time period, brand... If I want to see a classification of what kits are out there and their relative prices, I haven't found any site better for a really fast search and comparison. And, when their prices are okay I buy from them, too.

The Aoshima PE fret looks pretty lame; I think the average modeler is going to be way better off getting the ICM kit and going with WEM, Toms, or GMM brass...

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John and all,

This is looking great and the patience in getting the cut right has really paid off. What I really like about this product compared to other laser cut wood decks are..

- Because it's so thin it doesn't give the ship fittings a look of having sunk lower than they should be if that makes sense. At least it is far less than anything else out there. A little "modeling" can overcome those issues.
- The printed lines are superior to engraved lines. They look more convincing than recessed panel lines.
- The pattern in the teak itself and the printed lines does not leave me with the feeling of long continuous out of scale planks. Quite the contrary, it actually breaks up the look quite nicely. I don't see any over sized grain effect at all with this material. Put another way, if I'm looking at the deck from a reasonable distance (say 18") it has the same look I've seen of photos of actual ship decks.

One thing I would like to see if we can find a solution for is addressing the perimeter deck pieces that border the hull and ships fittings. It may be as simple as scraping off the printed lines and redrawing new ones in? I don't know. Maybe if we all put our heads together we can figure that out.

I agree that there is a lot of potential beyond Battleships and Cruisers with natural decks. I hope you keep at it John because I think you have an excellent idea and product here.

Dave

Thanks, Dave. I'm definitely planning to keep at it, as there's already a lot of time invested here and I want to see it through. And, not to mention, there are a lot of kits that I want to build myself, and I want to put these types of decks on them. I personally like the way that they look, but they also save a TON of time when building in that 1) you can fill and sand the heck out of the seam between the hull and deck plastic pieces and not have to worry about engraved deck plank lines since you're going to cover them up anyway, and 2) you paint the fittings and bulkheads the color that you want, and then you glue the deck down and the edges are perfectly crisp, straight and smooth between deck and metal - eliminating all the time spent in trying to get clean edges painted at those intersections.

In terms of the edge and perimeter pattern, I think we're closing in on that problem. It seems that the laser printer that we are using tends to distort the image a bit when it prints. Not much - only about 1/8 of an inch when printed over a 17 inch piece of wood. When we're just printing long plank lines then that doesn't matter at all... Once we start doing edges around fittings, then we really have to make sure that the printing and cutting align perfectly, or all that edge work will be off-center, and I know that won't be tolerated. We can either fiddle with shrinking all of the plans by that amount so that when they are stretched that they will print properly (ICK! - but if it works...) and/or we are looking at other printers that might have better print quality. I certainly like the idea of going to a color printer, then we could print camouflage patterns and insignia on the deck in addition to plank lines - and if we can print semi-transparently... Well, picture a Kriegsmarine deck with bold swastikas printed on it and the plank lines perfectly lined up showing through faintly underneath... I don't think ANYBODY is doing THAT yet...

So rest assured that we are really looking at this issue and working to get a solution to it, but in the mean time we are also trying to get our next round of products through final fitting and into release. Coming up very soon will be the Tamiya I-400, Missouri (WW2) and New Jersey (Modern), Prince of Wales and KGV, the Dragon Scharnhorst, and the ICM Konig all in 1/350, and the Trumpeter Arizona in 1/200. Following on the heels of those will be the Revell Missouri (WW2), New Jersey (Modern), and Iowa (Modern) and the classic Banner/MiniHobby Arizona in 1/350. All of the previous kits are already well into engineering and are at various stages in the fit cycle, with the I/400, Konig and Scharnhorst being the closest to release.

Also over the Christmas break I will work to get my website on-line, and will become a proud sponsor of ModelWarships.com as of the start of the year.

Oh, and I hope to put in a lot of time on my Borodino, too. And, if I work really fast I may even finish it and then start work on my next kit. Of the ones mentioned above, which of those would you all like me to tackle next? If there is one in particular that you all really want to see executed with a wood deck let me know, and I'll move that to the next slipway.

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