Calling all Benson-class & Gleaves-class DD fans

[Angeliccypher]

I will see what I can do soon about cropping the image around the bridge on the appropriate documents likely over the weekend.

[Timmy C]

There are some images on Navsource of the Gleaves that were transferred to Turkey in 1949. Some images show hull numbers D21(Lardner) and D22(Lansdowne) - when were these numbers used, as they were not the numbers the ship used while in the majority of their time in Turkish service? Also, there are other photos of them without hull numbers at all.
As another oddity, this picture shows what is supposed to be Buchanan with a G_1 on her hull: http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0548420.jpg

I have the 1/700 Lansdowne & Buchanan kit and would love to do one of them in a simple pre-tripod-mast Turkish setup. Asides from the different fire control radar on top of the Mk 37 director (what is the name of the small dish antenna, by the way?), I assume there aren't other changes.

[Cliffy B]

Its not a Mk-25 radar like almost all ships with Mk-37s received post war, they were much larger. I want to say it is a Mk-28, they were less effective than the Mk-25 but they weighed substantially less, hence their use over the more capable Mk-25. Ships with Mk-33 directors (pre-war CAs/CLs/DDs) usually carried them (I've seen them on a lot of the older DDs) for weight reasons as well.

Second photo down there is a nice shot of one on a Mk-33 on DD-364.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_5-38_mk12_pics.htm

[Rick E Davis]

Timmy,

The Pendant numbers for the Turkish GLEAVES class destroyers changed over the years. I really don't have a good handle on "when" they changed. The D and two digit (aka D.21, etc.) was I believe the earliest type used. The D and three digits (aka D.348, etc.) appeared at least by the mid 1950s. Actually some were renumbered again in the 1960s I believe. All four GLEAVES class destroyers were overhauled/upgraded in the USA in 1957 with tripod foremast, new radars, new ASW equipment, etc ... two units retained 40-mm guns and two units received two twin 3-in RFG mounts at the loss of one 5-in mount and all 40-mm mounts. Views without out hull numbers applied, likely were taken prior to transfer ... a guess on my part. No idea about the "G.1".

The radar seen on the Mk 37 director is the Mk 28. The BENSON-GLEAVES dual class had earlier "taper-back" Mk 37 directors that couldn't support the newer Mk 12/22 radar during WWII ... they did try adding the Mk 22 radar to the Mk 4, but it wasn't successful. Mk 28 was designed to be the upgrade for these older Mods of the Mk 37 directors and was being installed starting in early 1945. The taper-back Mk 37 directors couldn't support the Mk 25 radar added to FLETCHER-SUMNER-GEARING classes post-WWII. Both the Mk 25 and Mk 28 were con-scan radars, if that means anything to you.

So for pre-upgrade, use of the three digit hull numbers is OK.

[Timmy C]

Thank you, Cliffy and Rick! Mk 28 it is - now to find a suitable PE version, hmm.

May I assume that the ships kept their 1945 20mm armament even in 1949? A few of the pics of Lansdowne with the Mk.28 and in post-war paint show the 20mms behind mount 52.

[Rick E Davis]

Timmy,

I'm on the road and don't have access to my Janes Fighting Ships books from the 1950s to check. But, I believe all of the Turkish destroyers still had all seven 20-mm guns when transferred. Some of the 20-mm guns could have been removed prior to the upgrade in 1957 ... hard to tell from the on-line images available. The only images I have of these four in Turkish colors were taken after the 1957 upgrade.

Navsource images of these four destroyers are pretty small, lack dates, and in some cases are labeled with the wrong name!!! I think several of the Navsource images came from various Janes Fighting Ships issues. I know that ex-LANDSDOWNE (DD-486) ... GAZIANTEP changed her pendant from D-344 to D-348 when one of the GEARING FRAM destroyers was transferred in the 1970s and took GAZIANTEP's old number. I'm not sure if any of the others were renumbered.

[Roger A]

Gents,

I found this forum as I am doing some research on the USS McCOOK (DD-496). I am attempting to do my first model and would like to replicate the USS McCook as best I can. I did find some pics on the below link:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/496.htm

Does anyone have any other pics I might be able to use?

Also, since the two models below are gleaves class destroyers, would I just be able to use these and make the necessary modifications such as numbering etc.

http://www.dragon-models.com/html/1021poster.htm
http://www.dragon-models.com/html/1027poster.htm

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Timmy C]

Unfortunately, none of the Dragon kits have the square bridge you'll need for McCook - they're all round-bridge versions. However, I imagine it's probably doable to scratch build your own flat-faced bridge. Not sure about other modifications you'll need, but I'm sure Rick can chime in.

[Rick E Davis]

Roger,

The DML kits can be a start to model McCOOK, but McCOOK was one of the Square-Bridge GLEAVES class units and none of the DML kits have a Square-Bridge option.

Admiralty Models has a resin Square-Bridge conversion set that would give you the Bridge needed.

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/mi ... eview.html

Some other changes would be required for the midships and aft deckhouses to be accurate. Angelic Cypher on the previous page is building a sister Square-Bridge GLEAVES unit and he posted some images of plans he has. If you register on this forum, you can contact for more direct information.

His build can be seen here ... viewtopic.php?f=59&t=89105 ...

[RogerAdame]

Thank you guys for the information. I'll be sure to check out the other post for reference.

[Angeliccypher]

Pm sent to you RogerAdame.

[RalfS]

Hello,
I'm trying to build USS Meredith as she looked during the Doolittle-Raid.
One problem is that I only found pictures of the port side. Would the starboard camouflage be different?
She seems to be one of those with the six-pack of AA-guns in place of the after deck house. So the weaponry was 4 5in and 12 0.5in flak?
Cheers,
Ralf

[Rick E Davis]

Ralf,

You are asking about one of those "unknowns" in WWII. USS MERIDITH and her sisters in DesDiv 22 were transferred to the Pacific when the USS HORNET went to the Pacific. All units of DesDiv 22 had been modified in the summer of 1941 with twelve 0.50-cal MGs in common with most of the early GLEAVES class destroyers (DD-444 and prior). But, in the Atlantic Fleet (where they were assigned before going to the Pacific) it was common in early 1942 for the Navy Yards to remove a few 0.50-cal MGs and install a few 20-mm guns during short yard periods between convoy/escort missions. It is NOT known if this process had started on the DesDiv 22 prior to thier transfer to the Pacific. It is known that at some point MERIDITH did have some 20-mm guns replacing a like number of 0.50-cal MGs. By late May 1942 it "looks like" she had four 20-mm and six 0.50-cal MGs. Whether this was done prior to the Doolittle Raid is not known. Somewhere in this thread I have posted a couple photos of her sister MONSSEN and there are photos on Navsource of MERIDITH ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0543406.jpg ... that looks like she had 4-20mm and eight 0.50-cal MGs in June 1942. I don't know of any starboard views of MERIDITH, about the only thing you can do is mirror the pattern from the portside or copy the pattern of a sisters starboard side.

[RalfS]

Thank you Rick!

So, on the positive side, if I go with my best guess nobody can tell me I'm wrong?

[Rick E Davis]

Ralf,

As far as the camo goes ... I don't think anyone has found a starboard side view to argue with you. The available photos taken in May-June 1942 of two of her sisters, GRAYSON (DD-435) and MONSSEN (DD-436), in DesDiv 22 has them in Ms 12mod, but in a pattern different than what is seen on MEREDITH in the June 1942 photo. So about the best you can do is mirror the pattern seen on the portside of MEREDITH onto the starboard side. The colors should be normal Ms 12mod shades.

As for the location of the 20-mm guns on MEREDITH, my guess from looking at the June 1942 photo and from a May 1942 photo of MONSSEN, there were four 20-mm guns and eight 50-cal MGs. As I said before, just when she had the 20-mm guns replacing the 50-cal MGs is an unknown.

In looking at the 22 June 1942 photo of MEREDITH, she appears to have four 20-mm guns that replaced the same four of the 50-cal MGs that MONSSEN did. The two forward of the bridge and two on the aft deckhouse. It appears that they had to enlarge the "tub" bulwarks for the 20-mm guns on MONSSEN and MEREDITH, made necessary because the 20-mm gun had a larger working circle than the 50-cal MG.

MEREDITH (DD-434) on 22 June 1942, NHHC photo. I placed circles on the locations that appear in gray (I thought they would be in red?). Interesting that the Mk 4 radar has yet to be installed, but she has the SC air search radar.


Here is a photo of another early GLEAVES class destroyer, not in DesDiv 22, that shows all twelve locations for the 50-cal guns and I have circled the ones that were replaced by 20-mm guns.


Attached is a close-up crop of the aft deckhouse view of the 20-mm gun added there

[Dick J]

Rick, when I first saw this Meredith photo, I thought that the projections atop the MK-37 were the initial installation for the MK-4 radar brackets. But if you zoom in, they are crewmen sitting on top the the director. She didn't even have the beginnings of a MK-4 installation when that photo was taken.

[Rick E Davis]

Dick,

It was pretty common for the Mk 37 director guys to get "out" of it in the South Pacific. It had to be uncomfortable in there in the hot sun.

To be honest, I had not looked real close at this photo before this beyond hunting for 20-mm guns. My previous thought was that a censor had "removed" the Mk 4 radar, but the SC radar is still there. By June 1942, it was getting pretty late for her not to have a Mk 4 radar installed. But, the DesDiv 22 destroyers were kept pretty busy prior to Midway and didn't really have any extended yard periods until July/August (except for GRAYSON at MINY in May-June) 1942.

I have added this photo to my hunt list at NARA ... I'll see if I can get a better scan of this photo (and see if any "unidentified destroyer" photos of her are near-by in the box).

[jeroen zuiderduin]

Hello,

I have a question:

I have the 1/350 USS Livermore from Dragon and I want to build a USS Monssen DD-436 as she appeared during the Battle of Midway. I need to find out her weapon-configuration and shape of her aft-deck during that time.

I believe she had two 20mm and eight .50cals next to her four 5" guns and she was painted in MS-12. I already did some research and read some articles on this forum but my knowledge and ship-language is limited. I also found a Livermore-Monssen conversion on this site but she had nine 20mm, so that would be after Midway?

Any help would be highly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

Jeroen

[Rick E Davis]

Jeroen,

For the Battle of Midway, the discussion above for MEREDITH (DD-434) during this same timeframe would apply. I know of no drawings being "published" showing the layout of the 50-cal MGs that were installed in the summer of 1941 to the bulk of the early GLEAVES class destroyers (DD-429 to 444, minus DD-431). It appears from the few photos and records that the same 50-cal MGs that were replaced on MEREDITH were also replaced on MONSSEN (the two before the bridge and two on the aft deckhouse ... middle positions between the two remaining 50-cal MGs). The bulwarks (or "tubs") for these positions were modified to be a larger diameter compared to the initial 50-cal MG bulwarks. If you look at earlier pages in this thread, the twelve 50-cal MGs configuration has been discussed and several images posted. The six 50-cal MGs on the aft deckhouse were installed port and starboard side in an even spacing across from each other. Without accurate engineering drawings, you may need to "wing it" to a close approximation ... which should work.

Below is the sketch I made from a source I can't share. This shows the approximate locations of the 50-cal MGs on the aft deckhouse (upper drawing) and where two 20-mm guns replaced two 50-cal MGs (lower insert), the drawing I went by didn't have any dimensions, but I think in 1/350 or 1/700 scale this would be close enough. I don't know where exactly the 20-mm was mounted nor where bulwarks end so I "guessed". The 20-mm gun had a larger working circle than the 50-cal MG, so the "tub" was larger. If anything, from the photo of MONSSEN in May 1942, the 20-mm bulwark should extend outboard (and the foundation for the 20-mm gun moved outboard as well) than what I show here. In the photos it appears that the revised tub "centerline" was moved forward slightly and the new bulwark was closer to the forward most 50-cal MG bulwark compared to the more or less equal spacing seen with the all MG configuration and extended outboard almost as far as the aft most MG bulwark. Lucky with the LIVERMORE kit, I think the existing 20-mm gun locations on the aft deckhouse are in about (if not the same) locations as shown in my sketch. So, construct some smaller working circle diameter 50-cal MG bulwarks and dry fit them to the aft deckhouse to see what looks best. My best guess would be that the Ready Service Ammo Boxes (RS on the drawing) for the 20-mm guns would have replaced the set of four boxes for the 50-cal MGs on the centerline directly inboard from the 20-mm guns. For the two 20-mm guns forward of the bridge, the LIVERMORE kits 20-mm gun locations should be fine.

All of the DesDiv 22 destroyers were modified after the Battle of Midway to an unique nine 20-mm configuration (which is available on the 1/700 DML MONSSEN kit).

My best guess sketch of the layout for MONSSEN (and MEREDITH) in May-June 1942.


This view of BRISTOL (DD-453), shows her as completed to basically the same configuration as the earlier GLEAVES class units with twelve MGs (The only Repeat GLEAVES class to have 50-cal MGs). This view looking forward gives you an idea of how the after deckhouse looks from this aspect. You can see that the two forward most 50-cal MG guns are in-line and the aft most protrudes a little.

[jeroen zuiderduin]

Rick, Thank you so much for taking the time to anwser.
It is completely clear to me now

Jeroen