The Ship Model Forum

SFC P.,

I can't help you with that. I looked at Navsource and the Navy History site. Neither show a patch for the Amsterdam. I couldn't find a home page for the Amsterdam.

The Amsterdam had the shortest service career of all the Cleveland class. It is possible that a ship's patch was never created.

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

My father served on the Cleveland during WWII. I have forwarded the pictures of the Cleveland to the ships website (http://www.cl55.org) . The men who served on her were excited to see them - most for the first time. My father (still living) was a radioman. He has talked about the ship's armament, radars, fire controls and refits.

I was looking through Friedman's book ("US Cruisers: An Illustrated Design History"), and got kind of confused by one of the pics (also posted also available from Navsource here. It shows a pair of stern-mounted twin Bofors guns, which I found very odd because the standard layout of six twins as far as I understood it had one set abeam turret 2, one set abeam turret 3, and one set amidships, to either side of the (former) boat deck. A drawing purportedly of the "CL 90 Atlanta" (someone has crossed out "Atlanta" and penciled in "Astoria" instead in the copy I borrowed) shows the midships mounts moved to the fantail, as in the photo.

As far as I understand it, most if not all the Clevelands were updated to four quads and six twins by the end of the war - but which ones had their final pair of twins on the fantail?

Like most "standards", it was a moving target. The original standard for the "square-bridge" units was 4 quads and 2 twins, all between the beam 5" mounts. It was then upgraded to the 4 quad 6 twin standard with the additional twins abeam turrets 2 and 3. By late war, the raised twin mounts between the quads were being relocated to the stern. (Round-bridge units moved the twins abeam turret 3 to the stern.) Some of this continued into the post-war refits, and some of the last completed Clevelands were finished this way. In the square-bridge units, this was supported as a topweight issue, but in all probability, Houston's stern torpedo hit may have also influenced this change. Without the specific refit documents, you will have to find photos of your selected topic for the specific period of interest.

Sebastian,

I think this topic has been discussed several years ago in this thread. I don't recall the number of ships that were converted, but I think it was mentioned.

I think the decision to put twin 40s on the stern was made fairly early in the war - maybe in 1943. Guns were installed on the bow and stern to correct a deficiency in tracking aircraft crossing ahead and astern. However, there was a shortage of guns so 20mm were installed first on the stern (all bow guns were 20mm). This was a common practice. Some ships had two 20mm guns in place of all twin 40s during the shakedown cruises, and they were replaced with 40mm guns during the post shakedown yard period.

After the ships entered the combat areas the only chance for adding the 40mm guns came when the ship was damaged badly enough to require extensive repairs in a forward repair area or a shipyard in the states. Consequently, there was no "standard" 20mm or 40mm gun arrangement on the Clevelands.

I found photos of 20 of the 27 Clevelands that clearly showed the twin 40mm gun tubs on the stern:

Cleveland CL-55
Columbia CL-56
Santa Fe CL-60
Birmingham CL-62
Mobile CL-63
Vincennes CL-64
Pasadena CL-65
Springfield CL-66
Providence CL-82
Manchester CL-83
Miami CL-89
Astoria CL-90
Oklahoma City CL-91
Little Rock CL-92
Galveston CL-93
Amsterdam CL-101
Portsmouth CL-102
Wilkes Barre CL-103
Atlanta CL-104
Dayton CL-105

Most conversions were done after the end of WWII.

The Galveston was the last Cleveland class ship finished and it had the twin 40mm guns on the stern. It was not commissioned until 1958 after extensive Talos missile modifications.

Fargo CL-106 had twin 40mm on the stern at commissioning.

I could find no photos of the following ships showing the stern dual 40mm guns. All photos were from before the end of WWII, so the ships could have been converted after the war before being mothballed and scrapped.

Montpelier CL-57
Denver CL-58
Topeka CL-67
Biloxi CL-80
Houston CL-81
Vicksburg CL-86
Duluth CL-87

Does anyone have a photo of any of these ships showing the stern gun tubs?

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

Thank you both. With the amount of refitting going on, and the lack of decent pictures, you could almost wing it entirely and if anyone asks, you tell them "prove it wasn't fitted like this at some point!"

At least the Baltimores are a lot easier - twelve quads on the first two, eleven quads and two twins on all the others, until they were refitted with 3-inch guns.

I did some further digging around on Navsource, and I discovered something fairly interesting - the USS Manchester (CL-82) was the only Cleveland to remain in service as a gun cruiser long enough to get her 40 mm guns upgraded to 3-inch/50s. But the pictures on navsource are a bit blurry - does anyone have better pics or drawings of the Manchester's final configuration?

Found this one (no sure if it's her final config but post-bofors)

Hi,

Are there any websites or books that you could recommend for information regarding specific Cleveland class cruisers?

I am interested in Birmingham, Santa Fe and Wilkes Barre, the cruisers that came alongside burning US aircraft carriers. Are there any books about these ships, especially the Birmingham?

I have just read the very interesting book about the saving of the Houston, and have the book about the Nashville (not a Cleveland I know) and the diary of the sailor aboard Montpelier.

I also have the books regarding the attacks on Franklin and Bunker Hill which feature the Santa Fe and Wilkes Barre, but is there anything specific regarding the Princeton and Birmingham?

I would be interested in large scale plans of a Cleveland (I will check Floating Drydock).

Thanks in advance.

Sandy

P.S. Due to my misposting on the Brooklyn thread I have found the book 'Night Work'.

sandy,

I have posted several links to pages for Cleveland class ships here:

http://www.okieboat.com/Cleveland%20Cla ... story.html

Go to the bottom of the page for the links.

Brent Jones' Mighty ninety (USS Astoria CL-90) is an especially good page! Fantastic photos!

The Floating Drydock does have drawings for some Clevelands. Be aware that there are essentially two basic types of Clevelands (before and after Vincennes CL-64) and dozens of variations between different ships and different shipyards.

You can find the Booklet of General Plans for the USS miami CL-89 here:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/plans/index.htm

I have posted a list of microfilm blueprints from the National Archives for the Clevelands here:

http://www.okieboat.com/Microfilm%20notes.html

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

Kind of late to the discussion, but I can add some info to the issue of the 40-mm armament of the CLEVELAND class.

First off the decision to install twin 40-mm mounts on the fantail wasn't decided in 1943. It was made early in 1945. Not that it wasn't discussed before that, just that the decision to "actually" relocate two existing twin mounts was made more to counter the kamikaze threat.

The CLEVELAND class like most USN warships early in the war went through a steady "authorized" increase in 40-mm armament until mostly settling to the ultimate number in mid-1943. That number was limited by space available and top-weight (and crew space) concerns on all warships. The kamikaze threat late in the war caused a revisit to AA armament. In the case of the CLEVELANDS there wasn't much that could be done to increase the number of 40-mm barrels.

CLEVELAND class "authorized" 40-mm increased as follows (some of these lasted for only a short time);

Eight 40mm; Four twin 40-mm mounts (CLEVELAND was the only one completed to this)

Twelve 40-mm; Two quad and two twin 40-mm mounts

Sixteen 40-mm; Two quad and four twin 40-mm mounts

Twenty 40-mm; Four quads and two twin 40-mm mounts

Twenty-Eight 40-mm; Four quads and six twin 40-mm mounts ... authorized on 29 April 1944 (This was the ultimate 40-mm armament, the only change made was to relocate the midships twin 40-mm mounts, located between the two quad mounts, to the fantail giving a better field of fire and much better coverage aft.)

If you look at the class in the ORDER they were commissioned/completed, then you will find that they completed in the following configurations. The earlier units were brought up to the then "standard" during any overhaul/major repairs. Also the "round-faced" units had other issues that limited their armament.

The original "round-face" bridge units were the first commissioned;

CL-55 CLEVELAND -- 15 June 1942 -- 4x2-40mm mounts (8-40mm)
CL-56 COLUMBIA -- 29 June 1942 -- 2x4 & 2x2-40mm mounts (12-40mm)
CL-57 MONTPELIER -- 9 September 1942 -- same
CL-58 DENVER -- 15 October 1942 -- same
CL-60 SANTA FE -- 24 November 1942 -- same? may have been completed with 12-40mm, but quickly went to 2x4 & 4x2-40mm (16-40mm)
CL-62 BIRMINGHAM -- 29 January 1943 -- 2x4 & 4x2-40mm mounts (16-40mm)
CL-63 MOBILE -- 24 March 1943 -- same

The "squared-face" bridge units were next;

CL-80 BILOXI -- 31 August 1943 -- 4x4 & 2x2-40mm mounts (20-40mm)
CL-81 HOUSTON -- 20 December 1943 -- same
CL-89 MIAMI -- 28 December 1943 -- same
CL-64 VINCENNES -- 21 January 1944 -- same
CL-90 ASTORIA -- 17 May 1944 -- same
CL-65 PASADENA -- 8 June 1944 -- 4x4 & 6x2-40mm (28-40mm)
CL-86 VICKSBURG -- 12 June 1944 -- same
CL-103 WILKES BARRE -- 1 July 1944 -- same
CL-66 SPRINGFIELD -- 9 September 1944 -- same
CL-87 DULUTH -- 18 September 1944 -- same
CL-104 ATLANTA -- 3 December 1944 -- same
CL-91 OKLAHOMA CITY -- 22 December 1944 -- same
CL-67 TOPEKA -- 23 December 1944 -- same
CL-105 DAYTON -- 7 January 1945 -- same
CL-101 AMSTERDAM -- 8 January 1945 -- same

Units completed with the fantail twin 40-mm mounts:

CL-82 PROVIDENCE -- 15 May 1945 -- same (but with two twin mounts relocated to fantail)
CL-92 LITTLE ROCK -- 17 Jun 1945 -- same
CL-102 PORTSMOUTH -- 25 June 1945 -- same
CL-83 MANCHESTER -- 29 October 1946 -- same
CL-93 GALVESTON -- Suspended 24 June 1946 -- same

From PASADENA on all units were commissioned (one suspended) with 28-40mm guns. The last five units ... PROVIDENCE, LITTLE ROCK, PORTSMOUTH, MANCHESTER, and GALVESTON (suspended basically complete and mothballed ... not commissioned as a gun cruiser), had two of the twin 40-mm mounts relocated from amidships to the fantail. Other units had this same upgrade, most during post-WWII refits. Some units went into mothballs without having the two twin 40-mm mounts relocated to the fantail. DrPR appears to have a complete listing of units with the fantail twin 40-mm mounts.

I have not looked up the actual authorization date for relocating the twin 40-mm mounts to the fantail, but it likely was during early 1945 during the Anti-Kamikaze evaluations.

USS MANCHESTER (CL-83) was the only CLEVELAND class unit to receive 3-in RFG mounts in place of the 40-mm armament. By the time the Korean War started, she was the only CLEVELAND class cruiser still in commission.

Oh ... and for DrPR, I do have a photo of USS DULUTH (CL-87) with the fantail twin 40-mm mod after her late 1946 overhaul. Plus, in looking at TOPEKA's record, she was active until 1949, so she likely also had the fantail 40-mm mod done.




Ahh ... This cropped view from a 19 May 1955 photo of mothballed cruisers at Philadelphia Navy Yard Reserve Basin shows a couple of more of your list of unknowns as having the fantail twin 40-mm mod done by then ... USS MONTPELIER (CL-57) and USS HOUSTON (CL-81). Another fuzzy photo shows a few more CLEVELANDS, one without the fantail twin 40-mm mounts ... it has to be USS DENVER (CL-58) because the other units starting with a "5" not accounted for is COLUMBIA (CL-56) known to have had the fantail mod ... leaving DENVER as the only one of the CLEVELANDS at Philadelphia that doesn't have the fantail twin 40-mm mounts. Note that MONTPELIER has the "authorized" numbers of 40-mm mounts, but that the layout differs from the Square-bridge CLEVELANDS.




Well another piece of the puzzle. I sorted through DANFS and came up with a list of where all 29 of the CLEVELAND and FARGO (units marked w/*) class cruisers were berthed after mothballing as of 1951.

At Boston Naval Shipyard;

CL-82 PROVIDENCE
CL-105 DAYTON

At Philadelphia Naval Shipyard;

CL-55 CLEVELAND
CL-56 COLUMBIA
CL-57 MONTPELIER
CL-58 DENVER
CL-81 HOUSTON
CL-93 GALVESTON
CL-102 PORTSMOUTH
CL-103 WILKES BARRE
CL-107 HUNTINGTON*

At New York Naval Shipyard;

CL-92 LITTLE ROCK
CL-106 FARGO*

At Puget Sound Naval Shipyard;

CL-60 SANTA FE
CL-63 MOBILE
CL-65 PASADENA
CL-80 BILOXI

At San Francisco Naval Shipyard;

CL-62 BIRMINGHAM
CL-64 VINCENNES
CL-66 SPRINGFIELD
CL-67 TOPEKA
CL-86 VICKSBURG
CL-87 DULUTH
CL-89 MIAMI
CL-90 ASTORIA
CL-91 OKLAHOMA CITY
CL-101 AMSTERDAM
CL-104 ATLANTA

Then once she was decommissioned in 1956, MANCHESTER (CL-83) was also berthed at SFNSY

The reason I went through this exercise is that I have come across aerial survey photos of many Naval Shipyards during the 1950s. In many of the images I have scanned, I can't ID individual ships, but I can ID ship types and even classes. In this image cropped from a May 1952 photo, I found all eleven of the CLEVELAND class cruisers berthed at SFNSY. Note that all eleven have had the 40-mm fantail mod accomplished. So no need to ID individual units. So after all this, the 1955 photos of Philadelphia show that only DENVER (CL-58) is known to NOT have received the mod and that the last remaining "unknown" unit is BILOXI (CL-80) which was berthed at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, which I don't have any yard photos of. Since BILOXI was decommissioned fairly quickly after the war, she may not have received the fantail mod prior to being mothballed.

Rick,

Thanks!!!!

That is some nice sleuthing.

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

Rick,

I had no doubt about Denver's ID in the Philly photos. If you check the shot looking south (the one with the Hawaii in the lower right corner), the ship with the lack of fantail twins is in the front row. Left to right, the ships in that front row are Galveston, Denver, Columbia, Portsmouth, Honolulu and Hawaii. Denver's ID is confirmed by the quad 40MM. She was the only ship of the class where the second pair of quads were added at the O-1 level, all others having them on the O-2, the same level as the forward pair. In the Philly photo, you can see Denver's lower after 40MM as well as her empty fantail.

Thanks Dick,

I had gotten to the point where I was 99% sure that the "no fantail 40-mm mounts" unit was DENVER just based on looking at the hull numbers again, but didn't go back to update the written-up as I moved on to the West Coast berthed units. I didn't realize the 40-mm mount configuration differences between COLUMBIA and DENVER, that does nail it.

Rick,

Your Philadelphia photo is interesting for the variety of light cruisers in that nest. From front to back they are:

CL-57 USS Montpelier - Cleveland class
CL-81 USS Houston - Cleveland class
CL-107 USS Huntington - Fargo class
CL-42 USS Savannah - Brooklyn class
CL-55 USS Cleveland - Cleveland class
CL-103 USS Wilkes-Barre - Cleveland class

I knew a lot of the Clevelands received the stern 40mm gun tub modification, and the Fargos were completed with it, but I wasn't aware that the Brooklyns received the modification.

Brooklyn CL-40 had the modification as the O'Higgins 02 in the Chilean navy so it was probably done before the transfer.
Philadelphia CL-41 also had the modification while serving as the Barroso C11 in the Brazilian navy.
Savannah CL-42 got the modification while being rebuilt after the FX-1400 damage at Salerno.
Nashville CL-43 had the modification by March 1945. Later became the Captain Pratt 03 in the Chilean navy.
Phoenix CL-46 had the modification as the Argentine navy General Belgrano.
Boise CL-47 received the modifications before Sept. 1945.
Honolulu CL-48 - I could find no photos showing the modification.
St. Louis CL-49 had the modification while serving as the Tamandare C12 in the Brazilian navy.
Helena CL-50 apparently did not have the modification before being sunk at Kula Gulf.

Looks like all of the surviving ships were modified near the end of the war.

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

Hi,

I have noticed that some of the square bridge Clevelands have a tubular platform mounted hgh up on the aft side of the fore funnel with what looks like a four sided DF aerial mounted on it.

However, on photos of the Wilkes Barre not only does it have ths high mounted platform but it also seems to have another lower one (level with the Mk51 tubs) seen here in a photo from the CL-90 website:-



Does anyone know what it was or what it was for?

(there is also a photo of Wilkes Barre during building that shows the 'platform' on navsource but it is 'down' at the moment).

From the photos I have I don't see this on any other Cleveland.

All the best
Sandy

The double loop antenna is for the DAK medium frequency radio direction finder. This system was in "favor" for only a short period in late 1944 and started to disappear in 1945. The lower platform extension and apparent base for another antenna, is unknown without a closer up photo. I suspect that it is for one of the early ECM antennas or for fighter direction. I have yard photos from WILKES BARRE's (corrected it should be ASTORIA) late 1944 overhaul, with photos showing the DAK antenna has NOT been installed. Interesting that one of the photos I have in this series labeled as "CL-90", isn't, it is one of the early BALTIMORE class units (CA-68, 69, 70, and 71)!!! In this photo of the BALTIMORE class unit, which I think is BALTIMORE (CA-68) based on the camo and a similar photo dated as 18 October 1944, the platform extension and antenna base isn't seen in this photo on the fore stack ... BUT there is a similar platform on the AFT stack.

I looked through the few photos I have of CLEVELANDS from 1944/45 and the configuration of antenna locations was changing a lot. I couldn't find a close-up yard photo of this mystery antenna. I do have a relatively good view of OKLAHOMA CITY taken in mid to late 1945 with the same aft stack platform as is on ASTORIA and BALTIMORE (see below) and I can make out the single circular loop antenna version used on several other radio direction finders ... but NO DAK antenna. Also, below is a view of VICKSBURG dated 16 July 1944 clearly showing the double loop DAK antenna. Once the ECM suites were installed, these antennas disappear.


CL-90 ASTORIA on 21 October 1944 at MINY


CA-68 BALTIMORE on 18 or 21 October 1944(?) at MINY


CL-91 OKLAHOMA CITY during 1945


CL-86 VICKSBURG on 16 July 1944 at Norfolk Navy Yard ... antenna not installed in February 1944 photos. Photos of DULUTH (CL-87) dated July, October, and December 1944 shows the same DAK antenna installation.

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the photos. Not sure if you got the top one correct though. Isn't that the Astoria at MINY and not the Wilkes Barre?

The photos from navsource showing the Wilkes Barre at Camden in June 1944 show both the upper and lower fore funnel 'brackets', so she appears to have them right from the start.

Also, the upper funnel bracket for the DAK seems to be constructed upside down in that the angled supports come down from the top rather than up from below.

Curious.

All the best
Sandy

P.S. I haven't seen the late '44 yard photos of Wilkes Barre. Any chance of posting them please?

Duh ... you are right that is ASTORIA. My bad. I don't have any views of WILKES BARRE.

The picture of the Vicksburg shows another curiosity about the Clevelands - notice the trash burner exhaust pipe that curves up and forward to the port side of the forward smoke pipe (funnel). Then look at the photo of the Oklahoma City where the trash burner smoke pipe runs up the forward edge of the after smoke pipe.

Some of the early Clevelands had the smoke burner exhaust on the port side of the after smoke pipe. It appears that the trash burner was outside on the O3 level outboard of the smoke pipe on these ships. The other ships appear to have the trash burner in a compartment inside the superstructure.

The Biloxi CL-80, Houston CL-81, Vicksburg CL-86, Duluth CL-87, Amsterdam CL-101 and Portsmouth CL-102 all had the trash burner stack on the aft port side of the forward smoke pipe. These were square bridge Clevelands constructed at Newport News Shipyard. Some had a "high" elevation routing to the forward stack like the Vicksburg, but the Duluth and Portsmouth had a lower elevation routing. It looks like the trash burner compartment was located in a different position more forward than in the other Clevelands. That's odd.

The Birmingham CL-62 and Mobile CL-63 were early round bridge Clevelands built at Newport News, but they had the trash burner pipe up the front edge of the aft smoke pipe.

All of the ships with the trash burner pipe outboard to port of the aft smoke pipe were built at New York Shipbuilding, as were many with the trash burner pipe at the front edge of the aft smoke pipe. Just to make it interesting, the Santa Fe CL-60 had the trash burner pipe on the port side of the aft smoke pipe in January 1943, but later in the war (undated photos, but the quad 40mm guns have radar dishes) it was moved to the front edge of the after smoke pipe.

Columbia CL-56 also had the trash burner pipe moved from aft smoke pipe port outboard (Aug 1942 and in 1944) to the forward edge of the smoke pipe (3 Jan 1945). However, it also appears there may have been one or two additional configurations. A 15 May 1945 photo shows the trash burner pipe entering the front edge of the aft smoke pipe just above the base of the pipe on the O3 level. By 1946 the trash burner pipe was back at the front edge on the outside of the aft smoke pipe.

I have one picture that is supposed to be the Cleveland showing the trash burner pipe at the forward edge of the aft funnel after the port boat crane was removed, but it isn't dated. I have no evidence that the Montpelier or Denver were ever modified.

Q = Bethlehem Quincy Shipbuilding
NY = New York Shipbuilding
C = Cramp Shipbuilding
NN = Newport News

CL-55 Cleveland NY port outboard aft smoke pipe
CL-56 Columbia NY port outboard aft smoke pipe, inside aft smoke pipe, front edge aft smoke pipe
CL-57 Montpelier NY port outboard aft smoke pipe
CL-58 Denver NY port outboard aft smoke pipe
CL-60 Santa Fe NY port outboard aft smoke pipe, later front edge aft smoke pipe
CL-62 Birmingham NN front edge aft smoke pipe
CL-63 Mobile NN front edge aft smoke pipe
CL-64 Vincennes Q front edge aft smoke pipe
CL-65 Pasadena Q front edge aft smoke pipe
CL-66 Springfield Q front edge aft smoke pipe
CL-67 Topeka Q front edge aft smoke pipe
CL-80 Biloxi NN port outboard forward smoke pipe
CL-81 Houston NN port outboard forward smoke pipe
CL-82 Providence Q front edge aft smoke pipe
CL-83 Manchester Q front edge aft smoke pipe
CL-86 Vicksburg NN port outboard forward smoke pipe
CL-87 Duluth NN port outboard forward smoke pipe
CL-89 Miami C front edge aft smoke pipe
CL-90 Astoria C front edge aft smoke pipe
Cl-91 Oklahoma City C front edge aft smoke pipe
Cl-92 Little Rock C front edge aft smoke pipe
CL-93 Galveston C front edge aft smoke pipe
CL-101 Amsterdam NN port outboard forward smoke pipe
CL-102 Portsmouth NN port outboard forward smoke pipe
CL-103 Wilkes Barre NY front edge aft smoke pipe
CL-104 Atlanta NY front edge aft smoke pipe
CL-105 Dayton NY front edge aft smoke pipe

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle