Who would Win early 1942

[wr]

I believe he already has tenure.

If he found Yamato trounced Iowa would you be more charitable toward him?

W

Blast and bloody blast!
I need an Islay.

[Laurence Batchelor]

PS I have tried twice unsucessfully to reply to the posting on the Japanese technical reports. My point was that there exist several technical volumes prepared by the Admiralty on the German Navy. I looked at the one on German guns and firecontrol in the seventies and found it interesting. I do not think that these have been used by any historian to date. wr

Dear wr,

These volumes you mention interested me when I was told about them by one of the researchers at the Brass Foundry at the NMM.

He indicated that some of these items were held in their archives, but the lack of time prevented me having a look at them. I wonder if the rest is now at the Public Records Office?.

Perhaps these volumes in the future could be a line of reading and research that I may undertake after my current research on the production of naval guns for the RN.

Regards
Laurence

[wr]

PS I have tried twice unsucessfully to reply to the posting on the Japanese technical reports. My point was that there exist several technical volumes prepared by the Admiralty on the German Navy. I looked at the one on German guns and firecontrol in the seventies and found it interesting. I do not think that these have been used by any historian to date. wr

Dear wr,

These volumes you mention interested me when I was told about them by one of the researchers at the Brass Foundry at the NMM.

He indicated that some of these items were held in their archives, but lack of time prevented me hag a look at them. I wonder if the rest is now at the Public Records Offcie?.

Perhaps these volumes in the future could be a line of reading and research that I may undertake after my current research on the production of naval guns for the RN.

Regards
Laurence[/quot

Will will talk at talk at the time and place.

[chuck]

But I think it's a bit of a myth that the Italian Navy was as incompetent as the Army.

I'm all for myth-busting, but then the army should be treated fair as well - while the Italian army may have displayed utter incompetence in higher ranks (especially about logistic), it's a myth they weren't up to their opponents. If you read through the reports of RAC crews during the Cyrenaican campaign, you'll find their surprise at the Italian gun crews sticking to their guns literally to the last man.

Jorit

The world class bravery of initiative and Italian soldiers, sailors, junior officers were never in doubt. But the overall effectiveness of the undeserving services to which they dedicated their excellences is still entertainingly low.

[Laurence Batchelor]

Dear wr,

These volumes you mention interested me when I was told about them by one of the researchers at the Brass Foundry at the NMM.

He indicated that some of these items were held in their archives, but lack of time prevented me hag a look at them. I wonder if the rest is now at the Public Records Offcie?.

Perhaps these volumes in the future could be a line of reading and research that I may undertake after my current research on the production of naval guns for the RN.

Regards
Laurence[/quot

Will will talk at talk at the time and place.

ok

[JWintjes]

The world class bravery of initiative and Italian soldiers, sailors, junior officers were never in doubt. But the overall effectiveness of the undeserving services to which they dedicated their excellences is still entertainingly low.

But this was more of an administrative and logistics problem than anything else.

In any case I just wanted to dispel the myth of the Italians lacking bravery, which is still widely common.

Jorit

[Filipe Ramires]

The world class bravery of initiative and Italian soldiers, sailors, junior officers were never in doubt. But the overall effectiveness of the undeserving services to which they dedicated their excellences is still entertainingly low.

The attempt to invade Greece is one of the best examples I can come from mind right now!

[Laurence Batchelor]

My 2 pence worth is no one has mentioned 3 other important points in this hypothetical battle:-

1) Weight of broadside.

2) The number of shells fired in a salvo e.g. 10 guns for KGV as opposed to 9 on Yamato.

3) Perhaps most importantly Rate of fire.

These factors allied to the superior fighting spirit of the Royal Navy means my vote goes to KGV!!!

I know I've opened another can of worms there!

[chuck]

My 2 pence worth is no one has mentioned 3 other important points in this hypothetical battle:-

1) Weight of broadside.

2) The number of shells fired in a salvo e.g. 10 guns for KGV as opposed to 9 on Yamato.

3) Perhaps most importantly Rate of fire.

These factors allied to the superior fighting spirit of the Royal Navy means my vote goes to KGV!!!

I know I've opened another can of worms there!

Plus Yamato could only do 27.5 knots in the best of conditions, while KGV can do 1 knot more. So Yamato can never get a shot in as long as KGV doesn't run out of fuel.

What was KGV's range again?

[wr]

My 2 pence worth is no one has mentioned 3 other important points in this hypothetical battle:-

1) Weight of broadside.

2) The number of shells fired in a salvo e.g. 10 guns for KGV as opposed to 9 on Yamato.

3) Perhaps most importantly Rate of fire.

These factors allied to the superior fighting spirit of the Royal Navy means my vote goes to KGV!!!

I know I've opened another can of worms there!

After a decade or so you will start to get there.
PS And youi english will improve.

[Laurence Batchelor]

Steady wr!

I type quicker than my brain thinks!

I have many years ahead to get it!

Hopefully!

[Tracy White]

Just keep in mind people, that this is "naval-gazing"

[Vlad]

What was KGV's range again?:

13,000nm at 10kt, oh and she can do 29.3kt, so that makes her nearly 2 knots faster than Yamato.

as for what weight of fire.

KGV: 10 guns, 2 shots/gun/min, 1,590 lb shell

Yamato: 9 guns, 1.5 shots/gun/min, 3,219 lb shell.

Do the maths...total weight of fire per minute is:

KGV: 31,800 lbs

Yamato: 43,456 lbs

The deciding factor is that KGV will probably hit, and Yamato will probably miss

[JWintjes]

I have never been impressed by Professors of Naval history. Especially when they have nothing better to do than promote themselves at taxpayers expense.

I guess I should come in here to the rescue of (part of) my profession - on the other hand, I'm not a professor, so I might just as well sit back and wait...

Jorit

[Werner]

I think KGV's range at full speed is slightly under 2,000 nautical miles. Yamato's range is short simply because she was originally designed for diesels. Of course her tankage is a moot point because seldom in her entire life was there sufficient fuel to top her bunkers. (11,500km @ 16 knots. Iowa went 27,000km at the same speed).

W

[Werner]

There is no point in making one part of a ship invulnerable, as the sloped armor deck did to the lower hull against gun projectiles, when equally important parts of the ship, such as the rudders and the main armament directors and range-finders, are going to be destroyed anyway due to inadequate protection.

Japanese WWII projectiles remained at the British 1921 quality level, which was about the best for that time period, but very poor by WWII, especially at impact obliquities over 20o even against thin plates. U.S. post-WWII testing confirmed this. The YAMATO's 18.1" (460 mm) projectiles were better and could penetrate thin VH armor at 30o obliquity, but the improvement was rather slight. Their fixation on the diving shell design seems to have made improving their armor-penetration (and the armor itself) a low priority feature. In addition, the super-long fuze delays used for long underwater trajectories resulted in their WWII projectiles acting like solid shot unless they hit enough armor to drastically slow them down.

The best all-round WWII armor-piercing projectiles were the U.S. designs. They were less able to remain in effective bursting condition after penetration than British projectiles, but they remained rigid under very difficult impact conditions and could penetrate armor of much greater thickness at much higher obliquities than anyone else's. For example, at least one WWII U.S. 14" Mark 16 MOD 8 capped armor piercing projectile (APC in British and U.S. Army nomenclature, but AP in U.S. Navy nomenclature, since the U.S. Navy assumed an AP cap was always used on a "true" AP projectile) penetrated intact through a WWII U.S. 13.5" (343 mm) Class 'A' plate at 49o obliquity at barely above the NL, which far exceeded any foreign design capability that I know of.

Note that Okun believes that 13.5 inch penetration to be exceptional, underscoring my statement that most ships were over armored for WW.II. By this measure, North Carolina probably represents the best solution on 35,000 standard tons.

W

[wr]

I believe he already has tenure.

If he found Yamato trounced Iowa would you be more charitable toward him?

W

If he had found so, I would have my suspicions confirmed ,in that he doesn't know enough. What seems to matter in real life is who gets in the first hits. A little like a steet fight. If, (and I do not really like to use that word), Yamato had got in the first hits, then ANY battleship would probably be in big trouble. See below for real life examples.

Bismarck hits the Hood first - Hood loses.

Bismarck straddled the Rodney on the second salvo at around 25000 yards - good shooting. Rodney's was better, she made the first hits and Bismarck went downhill almost straightaway.

Duke of York hit the Scharnhorst with her first salvo at 12000 yards using type 284 radar for ranging, putting Scharnhorst's A turret out of actiion.

The above examples apply also to actions involving smaller ships.

Would the Yamato have hit first? Who knows, too many variables.
Would the Iowa have hit first? Who knows, too many variables.

[JWintjes]

What seems to matter in real life is who gets in the first hits.

Which is what I constantly keep saying - it's as much about luck as it is about paper quality. Perhaps your opinion carries more weight...



Jorit

[Werner]

And I keep saying that Japanese fire control practically rules out them hitting beyond 13,000 yards....

W

[MartinJQuinn]

And I keep saying that Japanese fire control practically rules out them hitting beyond 13,000 yards....

W

So then you both agree!!