The Ship Model Forum

I don't want this to get political but as some may be aware ere is a move among some of the population in my small Northern European nation to gain our independence from the rest of the UK. One of the political battlegrounds in this question is defence.

There are some variables we can't know right now but perhaps the old people on this site might want to play around with:

Scenario 1
A straight percentage of tax take or population mean that an independent Scotland might simply inherit 10% (approx) of the Royal Navy, Army and RAF, minus the Nuclear SSNs and SSBNs that the population has consistently voted against. This assume that the new nation also absorbs it's share off national debt

Scenario 2
In negotiating to keep the new British forces intact (minus some 15-20% personel and army regiments) the New UK simply forgives the defence portion of Scotland's share of the national debt, allowing the nation to user the cash to start it's defence forces pretty much from scratch.

So, there are a few other wriggles, NATO member ship or not? EU forces membership or not?
Active parts to play in UN missions, or not?

Oh, there are about 7 unarmed fishery patrol vessels operated by the Scots now, a fledgling coastguard perhaps?


For those of you unfamiliar with Scotland, it is a nation of 5.5 million, occupying just under 1/2 the UK (including seas). Within its seas is about 50% of Europe's known oil reserves and 70% of it's off shore renewable potential. There are literally hundreds of islands off the west and northern coasts, many inhabited, some of these are energy self-sufficient but most rely on mainland support (subsidised ferries and air links). 50% of the population is centred on the Greater Glasgow area (one of the reasons many don't want the nuclear deterent, Faslane is 30 miles from the city centre).

So, wo wants to dream up a new Navy, one they hasn't existed since 1707?

But please, the question is not whether Sctoland should be independent or it, it's not often you get a chance to start from a clean sheet so I though this might be fun. Let's keep real politics out of it?

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Keels laid: IJN Tone

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Well, no doubt about it, an independent Scotland demands an army and a navy with air assets too. Even if neutral, the military requirement is still there. But, as an aside, I'd love to see the saltire flying from the mainmast.

It all comes down to money, doesn't it. Given the need, how much can you afford, both in assets and in manpower. I would think that looking at what Ireland and Denmark maintain would provide a good starting point. Then, modify that as needed to take into account the North Sea operating environment.

What a great "What if". Some non-political background if I may. There are essentially 3 kinds of Navy. First a "Prestige Navy", then a "Police Navy" and finally a "War Fighting Navy".

A prestige navy is designed to look impressive in parading the flag and will have at least one prestige vessel. Ussually a large gun cruiser or light aircraft carrier. It doesn't matter that they only shoot the guns or fly the planes once a year. they look impressive.

A police navy is the function we normally consider for a coast guard. Fisheries patrol, life saving and stuff of that ilk. Police units can be combined with regular units in time of war like in the US but they are not primarily for war fighting.

A war fighting navy needs to be balanced and survivable to be affective. Putting all the eggs in one prestige basket is foolish. Counting on older technoligies to get by without being compatable with modern navies in the region is foolish too. I am assuming it is a war fighting navy you want so here goes.

Regardless of whither Scottland joins in any organization it is important that she be able to project force on her own any where in her area of interest.

Because all of the many islands and areas controled by a newly formed Scotland are within easy range of land based aircraft no aircraft carrier needed.

A High Low mix of combatants though is needed.

High. 2 to 3 Destroyers or Frigates.
Low. 3 to 5 Corvettes and about 12 patrol vessels.

For the High ship I would recommend one of the Arliegh Burke class variants that are out there. The Japanese version is excellent and so is the Korean. A standard IIA type would also be good. The American production line is still open lowering the cost to aquire. Barring that a Canadian Halifax class or Navalized Berththolf class coast guard cutter would work though be less effective in AAW. Both still have open production lines. The open lines lower the cost. Regardless which hull chosen the vessel needs to be able to accomplish AAW, ASW, ASuW, and operate its own helicopters. It also needs to be able to communicate with other NATO vessels whither they join or not.

For the Low ship I would consider Either the Berthholf named above or a German Braunschweig class corvette. As a minimum these would have to have some AAW capability, some ASuW capability and good ASW capability. I would mount RIM-7 in a 8 cell VLS as an absolute minimum. The ability to launch Harpoon or Exocet would also be a requirement. These could double as high endurance Coast Guard vessels with a CG detatchment on board but would belong to the Navy.

For Patrol vessels I would consider designing what you need and building it locally. There are a few ways to go in this department. Given that the weather in your part of the world sucks regularly you must design ships that can function in the soup. High speed would also be nice. Another feature that I believe would be important would be the ability to add weapons packages like RIM-7, harpoon or exocet. As is true of the corvettes it would be possible to make these dual purpose Coast Guard and Navy but you would be better served to make 2 versions and give one to a dedicated coast guard organization and the other to the Navy. I would consider a hydrofoil or catameran design. The ability to receive supplys or transfer personnel by helo but not necesarally a proper flight deck.

I am not sure what this all would cost, but it would create a credible force.

Given this scenario, what Scotland really needs is a small but highly effective Coast Guard force to enforce its sovereignty and protect its territorial waters.

This does not call for significant combat force, but emphasizes maritime air patrol; a squadron of long range patrol vessels, a flotilla of strike craft, and a specialized at sea rescue capability, a coastal defense capability, and offensive ship boarding capability (a maritime GSG9). And all of these units need to be capable of operation in very high sea states, wind conditions, etc..

Some form of SWATH hull would be the ideal hull to deal with the sea conditions, conventional destroyers and corvettes are likely to prove less than satisfactory.

This calls for:

• A very strong maritime aircraft wing that can effectively survey Scottish waters
• A small squadron of 6-8 SWATH hulled corvettes to fulfill the role of maritime patrol (ice capable?): these would not be particularly fast, but instead be capable of operation in very heavy sea states for their size and displacement.
• A squadron of at sea rescue vessels equipped with something along the lines of the USCG 44’ motor lifeboats
• A flotilla of Skjold type fast attack craft (these are extremely capable in heavy seas)
• 3-4 coastal defense batteries with truck/tractor mounted ASCMs
• A Maritime version of Germany’s GSG9

I posted the guest comment above and would like to add, and edit some. I found out the Halifaxes where not still in production and also an approximate cost for some ships that are. An Arleagh Burke class destroyer is and amazing ship and really a cruiser but the cost for one is about 1.8 Billion dollars or $300 percapita. A Bertholf High Endurance Cutter is about $560 Million or $90 percapita. The Russians have an open production line for Steregushchiy class Corvettes that are running $180 Million or $30 percapita. I also found the Holland Class being built in the Netherlands. It is about 1/2 the size of a Steregushchiy and carries fewer weapons for about 120 Million or $20 percapita. It does have what appears to be a far better radar system that I would consider for the Russian boats for commonality.

I would assume a Scotish purchase of the Russian ships would involve not fitting many Russian weapons in favor of Western ones, but still this seems an afordable option. If a purchase of say four Steregushchiy class Corvettes, 8 Holland class Patrol boats, 16 Skjold Fast Attack, and a number of smaller support vessels to support the policing and special operations team Busto mentioned. I would operate all the vessels as Navy, and add Coast Guard detatchments for the law enforcement aspects of the mission. The only possible exception would be the Patrol boats. The whole price tag would be about 1,840 Million or about the cost of 1 Arliegh Burke. This would be about $300 percapita which sounds afordable even in these tight economic times. Of course if money is flowing a little more freely the Steregushchiy could be replaced with improved Bertholf's (assume 700M) for 3.9 Billion or $650 percapita. Anyway that is what I see as posibilities.

The only thing I would offer about Russia as a supplier is that India has had a LOT of difficulty with their Russian purchases.

Thanks for the comments, some ideas that chime with my own thoughts.

Just a point of real-politik that colours the discussion, feel free to ignore of course!

1. Wars ship building is a major industry on the Clyde, the Darings, Bay Class RFAs and sections of the new RN carriers were built there and a new Frigate is to be. Carrier assembly is at Rosyth.

2. This weekend the pro-independence SNP is likely to drop it's long-standing opposition to NATO membership, while maintaining the removal of the UK's SSNs and SSBNs, weapons and HMS Vulcan.

_________________
On the Slips:
1/144th Stand-off scale:
IJN Nisshin
HMAS Albatross

Keels laid: IJN Tone

Frames laid 1/25: DDR KleineSchnellBoot

http://www.edinburghmodelboatclub.org.uk
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Edinburg ... 2565540179

Thamks for the update as to clyde. I was not sure if the ship building capability would survive a seperation. Often during this sort of thing the leaving power essentially scorches the earth out of spite. I would, of course, recommend the tax dollars pay Scotish workers to build the necessary ships.

For the Destroyer/ Frigate I would consider area air defence, ASW, and ASuW, indiginious helicopter, and NATO compatability (Including communications/ data, and underway replentishment) a minimum. South Korea has recently built a class of Destroyer simular to the capabilities of the US Kidd class but with VLS. The cost was reported at $923M (1/2 a Burke) which becomes a bit more palatable when much of the money stayes at home.

A couple, three destroyers, or Frigates mixed with a larger number of Medium Endurance Patrol and Fast attack craft and a Special Operations unit seem a good mix. A deal could be cut to put the special operators through the US SOC training pipeline, or the English, assuming no hard feelings. That would save the expense and time it takes to build your own training pipeline.

So lets assume 3 Destroyers simular to the SK ones, 3 improved Bertholf type Frigates, 12 Holland class Patrol craft (6 operated by coast guard but otherwise identical), and 16 Skjold and 1 replentishment/ support ship simular to the one built by Germany.

Ambitious, but a credible force capable of deploying in support of anti-piracy missions and such as well as dealing with home land defense. Just my thoughts.

I was thinking some more about what your contemplating. The reason I am recommending a creadible, though small, blue water force is Naval assets are essentially 50 year purchases. It is easy today, right now, to say an independant Scotland has no need of a blue water force. Right now it is true. The US Navy is the dominant world power, and any Scotish government will no-doubt be friends with America. By that logic though the English would not have "Needed" the force which liberated the Faulkland Islands. Not getting into the politics of that conflict, just pointing out that Naval forces must be built, trained and maintained long before there is any certanty of their need. When I get a chance I will calculate basic operating expences for a varity of op-tempo's. One thing I will add is a consideration of a small Submarine force. Perhaps the Germans may be willing to export a couple of their atmosphere independant deisel sub's.

I have done a bit more research on the various ship classes out there and what might suit The Scottish Navy. As before I will discuss best guess cost for each vessel but rather than a percapita cost for each I will do that for the total. I am also contemplating how the vessels I envision would fit into a whole defense structure. Some assumptions I am making.
1. The GB Navy will not turn over any units to Scotland as part of the split, and will keep all spares, ect they have stocked.
2. The GB Navy will want to continue using the ship yard in Clyde in a pay per unit sort of arrangement. (Helps keep yard busy)
3. GB will be responsible for there own Debt allowing a new Scottish Government a clean slate.

Ok here goes.
Blue water Vessels:
I would recommend the Scotish Navy design and build a new class of Frigate arround the Frigate size Aegis system used by the Spanish Álvaro de Bazán, the US Mk 41 VLS or Sylver A50 VLS, either the US 5" Mk 45 or the BAE 4.5 inch Mk8 Mod. 1 gun, the RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM)X2 and Oerlikon Millennium 35mm Naval Gun X2. I would fit both the RAM and the Gun because in the case of swarms of small boats or missiles the ship must attack where it is and cannot expect to have time to unmask a battery. I would make it all steel due to the lessons learned in the Faulkland Islands. I would also either make it beamy or fairly low in hieght with a high bow to help in manage the North seas. It would need a hanger for 1 or 2 Helecopters with a RAST type recovery system. As far as electronics (Not my strong suit) it would need all the directors and such to use its weapons and communicate with home and aircraft. I would also fit a good Sonar and a towed array. When you consider the cost of all the weapons and controls systems the cost of the Hull is only a small part thus I would consider adding expansion room for , say, more VLS cells. I would consider the export market in hopes of spreading the cost further. I would recommend a minimum of 4 vessels with an option for 2 more. The Bazán class was about 600M each, but lacked some of the systems I mentioned, so say $800M. The complement would be about 200 people.

I would buy or build a Support Vessel with Hospital facilities, support for at least 2 helicopters, fuel stores, weapon stores, repair facilities, command suite, and a large enough crane to handle landing craft in support of amphibious operations in a pinch. The crane could also handle containers. RORO capablility would not be required but nice. Self defense capabilities would be RAM, Millennium 35mm Naval Gun, and maybe an 8 cell for RIM-7. About $1000M The complement would be about 200 with room for 240 troops and hospital staff.

I would consider buying, or building an amphibious vessel (ie well deck) and designing it, or retrofitting it to perform Unrep, to act as a supply ship for the Frigates. It would be able to carry all the stores the supply ship can in smaller amounts and be more capable of amphibious ops. She would also need to support at least 4 helo's and be defended as the supply ship. About $1000M
The complement would be about 200 with room for 240 troops and hospital staff.

If Money ever started pooring in and the need for a flagship became apparent I would suggest 2 Arliegh Burke Flt III's. I think it would be out of Scotlands reach for now.

Patrol Craft:

Once again build your own with a eye toward export. I would build something simular to the Holland Class with a Otobreda 76mm Naval gun, a Oerlikon Millennium 35mm Naval Gun, and a RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile. I would retain the helocopter capability, and stretch it if necessary for the added mounts. She would also need to launch and recover a RHIB. I would build 12 with an option for 4 more with 1/2 being Coast Guard and the Other being Navy. The Coast Guard units could operate w/o the RAM or 35mm in favor of another RHIB. $160M Complement 50.

24 Helocopters of various types. about $600M

So total Navy unit cost $7.7B to $9.6B with an at sea strength of 1500 + 300 Coast Guard.

Annual Personnel cost about $100M
Annual Operating cost for Navy about $80M (SWAG)

Assume 10 years to build it so about $900M per year for 10 to 14 years and $180M after.

That is $150 percapita to begin and $30 or so after.

Seems doable

the main question is , which would be better , renting or buying ? ? Both have great advantages but cons aswell , what do you guys think ? ?

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be inspirational today , you might never get that chance tomorrow

The update is that the pro-independence SNP has just voted (narrowly) for NATO membership. This would bring some specific obligations of course.

Naturally his is only guidance, even if the referendum goes for independence in 2014, the subsequent negotiations and election in 2016 might change the outcome.

The issue of the Clyde yards is still a challenge but as they are owned by BAE, which is really 60% American, it would be hard to see them close.

My personal navy?
Simple arming of the Scottish Fisheries protection fleet, conversion to Coast Guard duties, additional 10 based on Swedish or local design
4-5 new type 28 frigates, perhaps more multi-role than the RN envisages right now
2 Bay-class LPDs, RN selling them anyway
Suitable RFA support, oilers primarily
Leased Maritime patrol A/C, anything is better then the nothing we have now since Nimrods were grounded
NH70, Merlin, Lynx helos
Probably no subs, definitely no nukes & bombers
Some would come from the RN, after all we've paid for 10% of it as it stands.
All based at the vacated ex-nuke Faslane base

_________________
On the Slips:
1/144th Stand-off scale:
IJN Nisshin
HMAS Albatross

Keels laid: IJN Tone

Frames laid 1/25: DDR KleineSchnellBoot

http://www.edinburghmodelboatclub.org.uk
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Edinburg ... 2565540179

a small coast guard fleet is a great start , how about a few UAV's to help the coast guards moniter the coast waters until better ships are availible ? ?

_________________
be inspirational today , you might never get that chance tomorrow

How about something like the proposed medium endurance cutter replacements? Interesting looking if nothing else!



http://vigorindustrial.com/services/off ... tters-more

wow they are quite strange looking ships , a can see a few myths born with this strange design in stormy waters , but the design is quite strange , what about meko's ? ? They can be refitted quickly and also be changed for a different role

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be inspirational today , you might never get that chance tomorrow

The more I think about the question, the more aspects seem to play into an answer. The nature and size of the Navy you need will depend upon the national interests to be protected. Therefore, will you have interests to be protected that are outside of the North East Atlantic region? If not, do you really need multiple fleet auxiliaries for resupply and refueling when there are so many nice lochs to duck into for needed resupply? Do you really need a helicopter carrier?

a few helicopter carriers are a must for any navy , because navy's arent just for war . A coastal country without a navy is a sitting duck . But the main thing is how does one plan a balanced navy with so much technological developments ? ?

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be inspirational today , you might never get that chance tomorrow

Not completely unrelated:
Wouldn't the remaining Not-Quite-So-Great-Anymore-Britain have to remove the blue from the union jack?
And wouldn't, as a consequence, the RAF have to repaint all roundels and fin flashes from blue-red to white-red?

Funny thought...
Michi

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ROMANES EVNT DOMVS!

that is actually a great question , would the pommies and scots start a war because of flag colours ? ?

_________________
be inspirational today , you might never get that chance tomorrow

As the blue of Britain's flag is not the same shade as that of Scotland's, it shouldn't be an issue. Though I hadn't been aware of that symbolism with regard to the Brit flag.

Diederick,
True enough that helicopter carriers are useful for non-war situations, how useful would they be in Scot's non-war situations? For Scotland itself, there aren't any areas that are out of range of land based helicopters. For Scotland's ocean areas of interest, the same can be said and could also be handled by whirlybirds flying from destroyer size vessels. About the only area of interest where they might be useful would be the Scots North Sea islands.

Now if Scotland chooses to get into humanitarian foreign assistance, a helicopter carrier would indeed be useful. But there again, you don't really need the weapons and sensors of a naval ship for such a role.

So we still come back to Scotland's national interests and priorities.