The Ship Model Forum

Glad we cleared that one up!!

Would you mind giving me an opinion on my new Bow over in my thread. I think it's looking much better...

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Regards

Nigel

I'd actually argue this is wrong. Take a look at this video, You can see both the painted out Baltic stripe and the original light grey of the superstructure undreneath some parts, so its clearly new paint and it can be seen symmetrically on both sides of the ship so its not just from the fire peeling it off in this way. To what purpose it was I have no idea as it does not seem to match the Baltic stripes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny7HEt--2Ag

Dana

Hi Nigel ~ This is a common statement in nearly all documentaries. I only can assume that most directors of them do not have a clue about Bismarck's internal compartments. My own knowledge is very limited too, but I know for sure hat there are no fuel bunkers in the hull above the waterline. With "There was no oil in the compartments at the deck level of the damaged areas" I was referring to the deck level(s) inside the ship. Since the entrance and exit holes are above the waterline, with apparently not a single fuel bunker ruptured, it is doubtful that the oil trace was because of this damage.

The 2,000 tons of water, I even doubt this figure, came in through the two holes from this hit, as Bismarck's bow wave shovelled them in. Remember, that she was speeding through the Northatlantic swell...

Ok, back to topic ...

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!

What I remember reading was the damage from the Prince Of Wales cut off the lines to a forward oil tank, not hit it. The bow hole also caused lots of flooding in the bow compartments because of the heavy seas, reducing Bismarck's top speed. So the oil was still there; they just couldn't get it to the engine room?

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-Jason Channell

Current Project: 1/200 Bismarck

I'm not quite sure if I understand everything correctly. The beige stripe with dark splotches in that video marks the position of the former black stripe. The white stripe was aft of this. The area in front of it appears almost white in the video, but it should have been light grey.

I thought everything on this side of the bridge structure is crystal clear. Let's see what you all think about the port side, esp. the top of the armoured conning tower ...

Happy painting ~ Olaf!

Question for Anton... did you stain and/or seal your deck? Do you think it's even necessary for the KA deck?

_________________
-Jason Channell

Current Project: 1/200 Bismarck

Sorry bout that Olaf. I was running off to class so that response was rushed.

If you pause that video at :24 seconds you have all three of each paint present in the shot. To the left you have the painted over Black Baltic stripe. To the top you have the newer "white/lighter grey" paint, and finally to the right the normal light grey seen normally on the superstructure.

This newer white/lighter grey paint is painted in the same way on both sides of the superstructure. Jump to 4:45 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhA5B8_0HSU
I'll see If I can find a better video of this side.

Oddly enough, if you look at the front of this section of superstructure it looks to be the same color. Go to 4:05 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VAosvCKYRE
So perhaps they repainted the whole front plus those small bits on each side of this section?

And yeah the odd painting on the top of the conning tower, lol. whats funny is they had it painted the oposite when she had the baltic stripes on, lol

seriously ok... here you go. Again i must reiterate it's not white paint. If you look at the hull and the footage especially of the after superstructure near the C barbette which has survived quite clean... the grey all matches.

_________________
AT
1/72 Arleigh Burke flight iia
1/72 Hobart class AWD HMAS Brisbane
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=154767
1/72 Friesland
1/75 Wasa
1/53 STS Leeuwin II
1/72 HMAS Perth 1942
1/72 Russian Corvette Steregushchy

...Please go to :25 seconds in this video and pause. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny7HEt--2Ag

To me this clearly looks to be white/lighter grey than whats on most of the superstructure painted on and not the affect of lighting...

Edit: Better yet here you go

The stills bob are from the same documentary.

Again I don't agree that it's white. Is it possible that they may have started to paint a new camouflage on the superstructure during the chase? Of course there's a possibility but the evidence doesn't support it. The ship is photographed deep under the surface with artificial light that plays havoc with colours. I support what others also agree that the colours are the light grey with damage from fire and the fact she's been on the sea bed for 64 years. The black stripe which is coming through the fresh painted grey is where it should be. Perhaps they painte the whole bridge area at the same time as overpainting the stripes, but no I dont think it's white.

_________________
AT
1/72 Arleigh Burke flight iia
1/72 Hobart class AWD HMAS Brisbane
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=154767
1/72 Friesland
1/75 Wasa
1/53 STS Leeuwin II
1/72 HMAS Perth 1942
1/72 Russian Corvette Steregushchy

Now if solid evidence - a photo appeared out of the blue showing Bismarck at sea after the 22nd of may with the bridge painted white I might have to change my thoughts.

_________________
AT
1/72 Arleigh Burke flight iia
1/72 Hobart class AWD HMAS Brisbane
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=154767
1/72 Friesland
1/75 Wasa
1/53 STS Leeuwin II
1/72 HMAS Perth 1942
1/72 Russian Corvette Steregushchy

I'm with you on this in that it may just be new light grey paint on the superstructure or a new camo pattern (especially where the front is this same very light grey). I'll even go out on a limb and toss out the idea that it may even have been part of the plan with irrecting a seccond funnel to cause the Brits to misidentify them before that plan was abandoned. The Conning tower looks like it may have gotten the same repaint too. Also Im not so sure this particular area was that much ablaze. Areas that were in heavily ablaze would show much more rust buildup as the heat and flames would have stripped all or most the protective paint off (especially considering just how long she was on fire at the surface before sinking.) I think a lot of the paint peeling we're seeing in this area is from shrapnel more than the fire. Who knows. Anybody got a time machine we can borrow? lol

Dana

Yeah it's also the only logical explanation I can think of.

The same argument will continue for years along with the yellow turret tops. It's possible only the main turrets where painted as we have testimony from crew and British sailors saying that as she rolled over the yellow tops were seen, plus the secondary turrets are clearly dark grey.

_________________
AT
1/72 Arleigh Burke flight iia
1/72 Hobart class AWD HMAS Brisbane
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=154767
1/72 Friesland
1/75 Wasa
1/53 STS Leeuwin II
1/72 HMAS Perth 1942
1/72 Russian Corvette Steregushchy

Yeah it's also the only logical explanation I can think of.

The same argument will continue for years along with the yellow turret tops. It's possible only the main turrets where painted as we have testimony from crew and British sailors saying that as she rolled over the yellow tops were seen, plus the secondary turrets are clearly dark grey. Unfortunately the main turrets are upside down so we'll never know for sure, but would be a safe bet they were.

_________________
AT
1/72 Arleigh Burke flight iia
1/72 Hobart class AWD HMAS Brisbane
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=154767
1/72 Friesland
1/75 Wasa
1/53 STS Leeuwin II
1/72 HMAS Perth 1942
1/72 Russian Corvette Steregushchy

So, is that set in stone then... main Turret tops, Yellow, Secondary, Dark Grey?

Now, was the Yellow a bright yellow or like a Lufthansa Yellow, with a hint of orange. Was the Dark grey like dark sea grey, or as dark as RLM66 German grey?...

I'll get my coat....

_________________
Regards

Nigel

If you build her after the 23rd-24th there's a good likely hood she had the main turrets yellow. They didn't paint the secondary turrets due to turn in the weather and supposedly stopped after the main turret tops were done. Though again the ships actual war diary and log are still with her today.

The dark grey on the turrets was the same as the roof of the storage room - the sloping roof right forward on te superstructure- and the tops of the conning tower. This is lighter then the steel decks and boot topping though and darker than the hull. The yellow would be similar to tht of the yellow of the life rafts. You'd need to make it a paler pastel yellow for scale.

If it's set in stone... Well it's my educated guess should we say.

_________________
AT
1/72 Arleigh Burke flight iia
1/72 Hobart class AWD HMAS Brisbane
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=154767
1/72 Friesland
1/75 Wasa
1/53 STS Leeuwin II
1/72 HMAS Perth 1942
1/72 Russian Corvette Steregushchy

Ok a correction of dates another read through my files the turrets were reprints yellow on the morning of the 26th. A passage from survivor report Otto Maus

"Monday morning we received orders to paint the top of the turret yellow. The breakers washed off the paint in a short time, and an attempt for a second coat was abandoned. The paint adhered only to the main turrets."

So some more evidence. Then there's the swastika's tey were also to have been repainted as they would soon be in the range of German air support. This order makes sense as they knew the British where out hunting her and wanted the Bismarck to be easily identified. Christ the swordfish planes originally attacked the British cruiser Sheffield thinking it was Bismarck. The grey however is still very evident over the swastikas. Again though if the yellow washed off due to the swell and rain... Perhaps the repainted swastikas in fresh paint could have easily if not washed off before sinking has washed away while under water and after 64 years under the surface what remains is the grey under that washing off and revealing the original swastika's. Food for thought.

_________________
AT
1/72 Arleigh Burke flight iia
1/72 Hobart class AWD HMAS Brisbane
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=154767
1/72 Friesland
1/75 Wasa
1/53 STS Leeuwin II
1/72 HMAS Perth 1942
1/72 Russian Corvette Steregushchy

Just a few words to paints.

I honestly have no idea at what I'm looking on the wreck. I think there are a variety of reasons for this or that apparance of this or that paint. The beige-ish tone on the position of the former black stripe reminds me on 1938 colour footage of Hamburg harbour, in which you can see Admiral Hipper at the fitting-out wharf. The whole supertstructure of the cruiser appears in a similar beige tone. So, it could have been some kind of primer. I can't have a look at my copies right now, but the painting regulation states a primer, but does not provide a colour for it. Then, the (1941) paint regulation also states camouflage paints (dark grey and light grey among others) to be used for the construction period (dependend on location, hmmm ...). It could be that they have slapped something of this on the superstructure. I did not go through all those youtube videos; are these strange colours seen elsewhere? If we look at old paint layers, why only on certain (and symetrical) areas? Are some paint ingredients more yummy to deep sea bacteria than others? What role played fire during the last battle? A desperate last-minute camouflage? Sloppy paint job? Rotten paint can?

The fwd armoured conning tower ~ The stb side looks okay to me, the upper port side esp. the angled step-up to the rangefinder base looks weird. On its very front there is a clean transition from dark to light. Too symetrical for my liking. Then, the aft port side of this angled step, as mentioned above by Dana, has the paints inversed, as if the white was fwd and the black aft. I think the angled step could have been painted the same dark grey as the roof (as other roofs including the hangars and rangefinders) and that the lighter portion on the aft end is simply light grey from overpainting the black stripe. That's my theory.

If I were to build and paint a May-22-to-May-27-model now, I simply would paint out the stripes etc. and not bother about any other colours. Too bad, I like the May-18-scheme most ...

Isn't it weird how a build log morphes into a CASF?

Happy painting ~ Olaf!

EDIT: Yellow turret tops, Maus and swasticas...
I still don't buy it. The ship was in so heavy seas that the swell washed away the yellow from the secondary turrets? Well, in my opinion, even a large and broad ship like the Bismarck moves heavily in waters that splash over those turrets. I highly doubt that they forced sailors in such weather conditions to paint the swasticas on the main deck, and even on the large main guns this seems to me at the green table to be too dangerous. I know, there is more evidence pro yellow, but still...

On my first cruise onboard a DDG in the navy, while in 6-8 metre swells in the southern ocean we had to repaint the main mast black paint. There we were hanging from a harness painting the mast while the ship rolled between 20 and 45 degrees and pitched in and out of the swell like a cork. It's amazing we got any paint on the damn thing! While it was fun, No you can never say the navy will get a sailor to do anything stupid hahaha

_________________
AT
1/72 Arleigh Burke flight iia
1/72 Hobart class AWD HMAS Brisbane
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=154767
1/72 Friesland
1/75 Wasa
1/53 STS Leeuwin II
1/72 HMAS Perth 1942
1/72 Russian Corvette Steregushchy

Excuse me for asking what may be a stupid question, but why did the colour of Bismarck change on what seems to be a daily basis?

I mean, why would you want yellow turrets? For airborne recognition? Confuse the enemy?

_________________
Regards

Nigel