The Ship Model Forum

With this log I join the other megalomaniacs taking on this huge kit. I have a lot "on my plate" in 2013, so this build will progress slowly.

I'm building Bismarck as she looked on Commissioning Day, August 24. 1940 in Hamburg. For the new crew and the new ship, it was a happy day as they paraded and welcomed their new Captain, Ernst Lindemann aboard. They could not forsee the fate that awated them in the North Atlantic some 9 months later. The paint scheme is simple, and elegant.

North Star Models will be releasing 1/200 Kriegsmarine crew figures in rank and file pose. They would look perfect for Commissioning Day! Hope the brass band is included!

I will be doing hull sanding and drilling first. I'm not up to Nigel's level of expertise. Will drill a new opening for the stem anchor and brass pedestal mounting holes in the keel. I may not cut out the water cooling inlet and exhaust openings. Those details may be managable artistically with careful paint technique. I agree with Jason Channell that the hull is too plain. So, I'm adding the armor plate weld lines based on a diagram on page 24 in "Battleships of the Bismarck Class" by Koop and Schmolke. These lines will not be mathmatically perfect, but artistically representative. I achieve it by nearly abutting strips of 3-M Automotive Masking Tape (almost as good as Tamiya for large purposes), leaving a 0.5 mm plastic gap exposed. Using 1/2 ich (12.52 mm) wide tape achieves about the right plate height according to the book. SEE PHOTOS BELOW. To the gap I apply a thin layer of Testors Plastic Tube Cement. When dry, and unmasked a fine, slightly elevated "weld seam" remains. This subtle effect should be even more subtle after primer and paint are applied.

I appreciate your comments! Tally ho!

_________________
Bill

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM.

hey Wilhelm

Looking forward to see what you do with your build. I like to see what others do in their technices for detail on ships as this is my first ship build. I hope to have my own build log up soon. I like you and others will not be redoing the hull as Nigel has done. I do not possess that level of skill will ships to undertake such a transformation. But I must say Nigels hull looks awesome!! Cant wait to see how your weld lines come out. Most of my detail was to be above water line, but I may need to rethink this as I am doing a build with the full hull. Good luck to you in your build as well as all others who are doing this build.

Yay! Wilhelm has finally begun yet another descent into Bismarck Madness!!



I found a useful link for us Bissy-builders; and accessory we're all gonna need soon:

http://www.realstraightjackets.com/

_________________
-Jason Channell

Current Project: 1/200 Bismarck

I look forward to seeing the results Wilhelm...

I wonder how you will prevent the glue from dissolving the tape glue and creeping under, making a big mess around your weld line? I assume you've tried this on some scrap first??

_________________
Regards

Nigel

[/quote] I wonder how you will prevent the glue from dissolving the tape glue and creeping under, making a big mess around your weld line? I assume you've tried this on some scrap first??[/quote]

Actually, Nigel, I have tested the technique. But, my first try with the striping used Tamiya Ultra Thin Cement. This produced a fine, slightly elevated line which was easily (perhaps too easily) sanded away. I sanded the line away, because the first tape I used was too wide, producing too tall a scale armor plate. A 1/2 inch tape strip will better replicate the height of a 1/200 Bismarck armor plate.

Interestingly, even the Tamiya Ultra Thin Cement (toluene + acetone) did not creep under the tape strip where it was properly burnished to the plastic surface. Truthfully, there were a couple of tiny "creeps" where I failed to burnish the tape edge very tightly to the plastic (unseen tiny wrinkles). You have to be wary of this operator error issue. But, there was no problem at all with performance of the materials. The Testor's Tube Glue contains a mix of polystyrene and toluene which "thickens it." This creates a poorer cement for bonding plastic parts together in kit assembly, but if applied thinly, should creep much less than Tamiya Ultra Thin and leave a more prominent weld line. In my experience, nothing "eats" plastics like acetone (Tamiya Ultra Thin).

Remember, too, I'm using 3-M AUTOMOTIVE Masking Tape. The Automotive tape is much more resistant to the organic solvents used in spraying automotive lacquers, enamels, and polyurethanes. The tape is fairly thin (minimal paint buildup along the edges), and adheres well giving a sharp edge, with low tack when peeled away.

Nothing beats Tamiya tape for fine paint technique and masking small details, but I've discovered that 3-M Automotive tape nearly matches Tamiya in larger applications, (as when faced with painting or masking a large Bismarck hull). And, money saved can be substantial!

_________________
Bill

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM.

Perfected technique for Bismarck armor plate weld lines:

1.) Tape four (4) parallell 1/2 inch 3-M Automotive Masking Tape strips along the side of the hull. Starting at the belt armor level, I placed the top edge of horizontal strip #2, working downward, paralell to tape strips #3 and #4. Between each tape strip leave a 0.5 mm strip of exposed plastic hull. Additional (narrower) tape strips will be needed as the keel is approached, but I'll cross that bridge later-on.

2. Strip #1 is applied forward and aft of the belt armor bulge only, to create the horizontal weld line below the upper bow and upper stern plates only.

3.) BURNISH the tape strips tightly to the hull, avoiding wrinkles at the tape edges. A burnishing tool works best here,

4.) Get TESTORS TUBE CEMENT (the old kind in the red and white tube with TOXIC toluene). I bought two tubes in a bulk pack with fine tip applicators for $3.50 USD at Hobby Lobby. The tube cement is easier to work with and somewhat less volatile than liquid cements.

5.) Using the fine tip applicator, you can just fill a 0.5 mm tape seam with cement. I immediately thinned the wet cement bead out with a small wood applicator. This technique is extremely simple and non-destructive to your valuable 1/200 plastic Bismarck hull.

6.) When the glue is well dried, peel the masking tape away.

7.) Repeat the process to create vertical weld lines, which become more numerous and irregular as the hull curvature toward the keel is approached. So the small drawing on Page 24 in "Battleships of the Bismarck Class" by Koop and Schmolke indicates.

WARNING: Toluene, methyl-ethyl-keytone (MEK), and acetone are TOXIC. These chemicals are rapidly absorbed into the bloodstream through the nasal passages and the lungs. In acute exposure, these fat-soluable chemicals rapidly cross the blood-brain barrier, causing headache, nausea, cerebral dysfunction (a "huffer's high") and even death! Long term exposure has been implicated in BRAIN CANCER.

Spreading large amounts of these aliphatic hydrocarbons quickly over a wide surface area (Bismarck hull) rapidly releases a lot of dangerous chemical into your immediate work area. Either work in a well-ventilated area or outdoors. Don't become another Bismarck casualty!

_________________
Bill

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM.

AFTERTHOUGHT: ABANDON THE HULL WELD LINE CONCEPT ENTIRELY!!!

The above described technique actually results in some pretty good "weld lines"... too good, in fact!

But, after applying a few weld lines, the hull begins to look "non-Bismarckian"...something like an old rivetted ship hull.

I went to the books. Photos show that when the armor plates were welded, a thin, prominent weld line was indeed created. But those lines do not appear on the finished, painted hull to any significant degree. Conclusion: The Germans ground the weld lines smooth before painting the hull. So, the hull APPEARED seamless, externally.

Thus, although we know the Bismarck had an electro-welded hull, it makes no sense, whatsoever, to replicate that construction process, since it is not evident EXTERNALLY. One would apply weld lines to the model, only to smooth them off again! Nonsense!

Fortunately, the few lines I applied can be easily sanded off. It was a good learning experience contrasting our knowledge of ship construction with the final artistic appearance of the hull, which are quite different.

Hope this saves someone else the bother!

_________________
Bill

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM.

Hi,

The armor plates were not welded at all! They were bolted to the WT shell and rested on the armor support structure.

Bye,

Bernd.

_________________
Thanks & Sources: Nilsson (research) and J.Arntz (research, drawings). HASSLER Profile, ZERO PAINTS, IWATA airbrush, EXCEL blades, Byrnes Model Machines and more

Yes, they were bolted. Between the hull and the armour there also was a layer of hard wood (teak or oak). The purpose of this was to act as a shock absorber and flex to further reduce the change of penetration.
Hard armour plates are not easilly welded. At least not in 1939-40..

A small digression: This picture is from Sweden. My former company and Swedish FMV -Material Command used this plate for firing 155mm 43kg shells onto the side armour of Tirpitz. This plate was bought from Norway some time after the war.

Shell was standard 155mm HE with PPD 440 Prox Fuze fired through 40 cm plywood (first) as part of a safety test - it shall not detonate. However: The impact against Tirpitz in enough to detonate the shell even with a crushed and destroyed fuze!
There was no marks in the armour after the tests!!!

Some plates of somewhat thinner Tirpitz armour is still in use in the Road Constrution Dept in Oslo..

_________________
Ultima ratio regum

Yes, the plates were bolted to 50 mm thick teakwood.

BUT, on page 69 of "The Battleship Bismarck" by Elfrath and Herzog they discuss that fact plus "The new armor steels that were used placed high demands on the technique of welding." Then there is a closeup photo of two overlapping plates captioned "Here a piece of two WELDED armor plates has been cut out. The WELDED seam has been opened longitudinally and is now ready for metallurgic testing."

Which expert am I to believe? Look at that photo and comment, please.

However you cut it, there is a history of Bismarck having an electro-welded hull (after bolting into place on 50 mm teakwood). But, on a 1/200 model no external weld seams will show.

_________________
Bill

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM.

This time - only this time - you should believe me. Because it is and was not possible to weld 320 mm plates together (it is only a few years ago that I read a paper describing the welding of 300 mm plates of construction steel - for large diameter tubing) nor does it make sense for reasons of exessive rigidity of the hull and the negative thermal and chemical influence of the welding on the armor steel. Also the bolting was not able to withstand a hit on the rear side of the armor plates, the bolting would have failed and the heavy load of the neigbouring plates could have led to a collapse of the armor belt. Also welded parts cannot be seperated without the destruction of the parts. The plates were bolted to the watertight outer shell, not to the wooden layer. The wooden layer had to adapt the shape and contour of the shell to the rearside of the plates and vice versa to avoid voids behind the pating. Imagine a tile laying loose on gravel, when you step on it it will crack, with the tile emdedded in concrete or sand etc. it can carry your load.

Bye for now,

Bernd.

_________________
Thanks & Sources: Nilsson (research) and J.Arntz (research, drawings). HASSLER Profile, ZERO PAINTS, IWATA airbrush, EXCEL blades, Byrnes Model Machines and more

I believe you Bernd. As an engineer I can confirm that the welding together of 320mm plates would require the joint to be vee'd out and then welds would need to be overlayed one on top of the other. Of course, this would never be done as the heat would seriously affect the steel and the distortion would be massive. Electron Beam welding will probably get that deep one day, but there's no way they could have done it in 1940!!

What I would like to know is how to replicate the bolted on panels, especially the joint where they met the hull along their bottom edge. I guess a simple scribed line would be good enough, or would there have been some capping on the joint?

_________________
Regards

Nigel

Wilhelm, you ran into the same problem I did.

I don't want to get into all the literal rivet counting going on here but the fact of the matter is that 1/200 scale is still VERY small and it will be incredibly difficult to reproduce them accurately by adding them onto the hull. Most regular methods of adding weld lines and rivets are gonna be too exaggerated looking to work well.

1/200 is a weird scale to work with. On smaller scales you can easily get away with exaggerated details and get a good model (1/700 practically requires it!) but this one is big enough that the old tricks don't fool the eye anymore yet small enough that it is incredibly difficult to recreate them.

I personally think the only semi-realistic way anybody is gonna get "weld lines" on this hull and make them look truly right is to cut the actual plates out of styrene sheet and glue them onto the hull, leaving the joints semi-visible under the paint (just like the real thing). The rivets themselves are just too small at 1/200 scale to replicate exactly, but exaggerated size rivets might look decent with plates.

This sounds like a job for Nigel!

Otherwise, don't feel bad, she looks fine with a smooth hull too... all things considered.

_________________
-Jason Channell

Current Project: 1/200 Bismarck

Dear Bernd and Nigel:

Hmmmm...forgive me, but it sounds a little like engineers are revising history based on their current technical knowledge.

Baron von Mullenheim Rechberg, the Aft Artillery Officer in his book "Battleship Bismarck, A Survivor's Story" states on Page 21 "More than 90 percent of Bismarck's steel hull was welded."

Look at Ulrich Elfrath and Bodo Herzog's book "The Battleship Bismarck, A Documentary in Words and Pictures." Pages 86 - 93 discuss armor plate and hull construction, including the bolting and WELDING of armor plates. Closeup photos of the welded armor plates are shown on pages 89 and 92. Elfrath and Herzog document that construction presented a technologic challenge to welding, and that stressed areas of the hull had to have the welds metallurgically checked frequently. They do not say that welding was considered an impossibility, or was discarded in favor of some other method.

The method is depicted with the photo caption on Page 92: "The foundation of the side armor is 50 mm blocks of teakwood. To these the armor plates are mounted, (light (color in the b&w photograph) armor plates) by being screwed onto the wood blocks and welded together. In the belt armor area additional plates (dark color) are welded first to the side armor AND THEN TO EACH OTHER." (Emphasis added).

The work by Elfrath and Herzog is an earlier one, so one presumes they had access to Bismarck survivors, as well as surviving Blohm and Voss shipyard workers. So, how do you discount their PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE of the welded armor plate method?

Until I see something more substantitive, in the way of historical references, I'll have to go with the existing contemporary accounts and photographs.

Anyway, with respect to building a 1/200 Bismarck, we can all agree that no weld lines appear on the external surface of the hull.

_________________
Bill

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM.

Jason:

Thanks for the encouragement. My "weld lines" did no real harm to the hull and are already 50% erased.

In the photo on page 92 of Elfrath and Herzog's book "The Battleship Bismarck, A Documentary in Words and Pictures" you can actually see a weld line protruding externally from between two joined armor plates in the left side of the photo. The weld line is quite narrow and would be difficult to replicate in 1/200 scale. I think the Germans ground these external weld lines smooth before painting the hull. Maybe they used "Bondo Auto Boody Filler," too! Now, that's body shop work on a massive scale!

It is intriguing that modern engineers are perplexed about the ability of anyone to weld these massive armor plates (they deem it nearly impossible)...but, then, how WAS it done in the late 1930's?

The Germans in that era had a lot of amazing technology being developed...jet planes, rocket gliders, glider bombs, V2 rockets, work on nuclear weapons, time travel, and cloning, to mention but a few. Is it possible that they developed some advanced method for welding thick armor plate that today seems incomprehensible?

I've always thought "welding is welding." But, maybe we've stumbled on a mystery!

Can James Cameron please bring back a sample of joined Bismarck armor plate from his next expedition to answer the riddle for us?

_________________
Bill

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM.

The side armor is not welded. Also there are no weld beads visible. The plates of the citadel and the belt were rebated. The shell was welded including the 35 and 20 mm Wh armor. Bye.

_________________
Thanks & Sources: Nilsson (research) and J.Arntz (research, drawings). HASSLER Profile, ZERO PAINTS, IWATA airbrush, EXCEL blades, Byrnes Model Machines and more

I agree that a lot of these weld lines would have been ground flat with the hull, especially those below the waterline. I do not see any photographic evidence of weld lines on the armor belt in either photos or wreck footage. The only ones that still seem to be prominent are those on the bow until the start of the armor belts and again, but to a slightly lesser extent, those on the stern after the armor belt.

I agree with channel that these Weld lines on the Bow and Stern could be replicated in scale with abutting plasticard or perhaps really fine scribed lines with a dental tool.

Dana

Kindly cite your historical reference works, Bernd, so everyone is "on the same page" here.

The Elfrath and Herzog book, "Battleship Bismarck, A Documentary in Words and Pictures" describes in words and depicts a photo of welded side armor plate in a photo on Page 92. What is your documented, historic refutation of this data? I'm seeking a historical, contemporary reference or photographic evidence that supports your position.

There is logic to your engineering arguments, but when Baron von Mullenheim Rechberg, says "Over 90% of the Bismarck's steel hull was welded," how do you explain that statement away? Do you think he was deluded (harbored a false belief system)? The Baron was educated in gunnery at the Naval School, Murwick-Flensburg. As the Aft Artillery Officer, he would have been very familiar, with the hull structure and its ability to sustain "hits" in combat. He also faced the possibility of becoming Captain, if all more senior officers were incapacitated. He would have been very familiar with the hull structure, and I do not think he was deluded in his statement about the "over 90 percent welded hull" structure.

Still, his remark does suggest that somewhat less than 10% of the hull remained unwelded. Does this imply a mixture of 90% welded seams and 10% unwelded expansion-contraction joints? Possibly so. And here, your engineering point about temperature fluctuations is well taken. A 100% welded hull would be too rigid, unseaworthy, and unworkable.

Battleship Bismarck is first and foremost a historical subject. Where there is controversy, I'm compelled to choose the historical record every time.

In the absence of any historic reference to an unwelded hull, I think "We're beating a dead horse."

_________________
Bill

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM.

Hi,

face hardend steel KC could not be welded, weldable were St52M, St42M; Wh and Ww. Joining of face hardend KC was done by bolting, screwing, riveting and rebating.

The Elfrath book contains good pictures of the installation of the side armor. All details are shown to advantage. Taking samples is done after the delivering of material, not after its use in construction. Otherwise failed physical and chemical tests would lead to the scrapping of the ship on the slipway.

The Baron wasn´t aware that he directed two different designs of the AA 105 mm guns.

It is also recommended to read Bauvorschrift für den Schiffskörper der Schlachtschiffe F und G B.B.V. –S–. I posted sample pages for the outer shell and side armor for further research and private non-commercial usage. Search amazon´s wesite for it.

Bye now,

Bernd.

_________________
Thanks & Sources: Nilsson (research) and J.Arntz (research, drawings). HASSLER Profile, ZERO PAINTS, IWATA airbrush, EXCEL blades, Byrnes Model Machines and more

Bernd:

Danke. Ich koennte Sein Antwort auf deutsche Frakturschrift teilweise lesen. (Translation: Thanks, I could partially read your answer in German Fraktur script).

I'm not a metallurgist, so I'm not going to further challenge your assertion that Krupp Cementite could not be welded.

I do not know how to date the time (WHEN) the Elfrath welded plate photos originated, whether from delivered test materials prior to construction, or parts removed from the completed ship for forensic examination. So, I guess I'll just have to accept your assertion about the timing of those photos, too.

Thanks for your suggestion, Bernd, but I think I'll decline to presently delve further into all the nitty-gritty details of armor plate (auf Deutsch).

Right now, I DO plan to have some FUN building this kit!

_________________
Bill

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM.