The Ship Model Forum

Alright, this is a rather encompassing project I have in mind, and not for the faint of heart. Let's leave the expenses at the door, and look at the concepts in mind. That said, gentlemen, let's begin.

I've always liked the thought of modernizing the IJN ships - an alternate history where their navy didn't get sodomized or stolen, courtesy of an early peace, or avoiding the all out war, take your pick, the how is still fuzzy. Basically, my concept of the rules of the treaty were as follows:

1) Fixed Wing Naval Aviation is not allowed - no Carriers, no Seaplanes, no through-deck ships either, so the New Hyuga would be a violation of the treaty as well.

2) Battleships are allowed, as at the time of the writing of the treaty, much of the world was being dominated by the "Carrier humpers" who believe, as most do, that Carriers rule, and the Battleship is an old and dead concept. These are the largest surface combatants that are allowed unto the Republic of Japan. (My base theory started with the thought of the Emperor being overthrown by a government hell bent on preserving Japan.)

3) New Build Warships are not allowed for at least 40 years, though modernization and new equipment are allowed. In essence, no Spruance, but you can have Albany as a concept.


So, that said, I'll share a few of the ideas that I have had in my head:

Ise - stays in storage pending further reconstruction, where the catapults are removed, and the flight operations area is brought more central to the ship - should affect the ballast of the ship to have its main turrets at either end. The fixed wing operations are removed, but the flight deck is retained, converting the Ise into a BBH. Casemate positions are fully rebuilt, faired over entirely, opening further internal spaces. 5" mounts, those surviving, removed and replaced with modern weapons systems, either new 5"/60 twin mountings, or 155mm singles. Main battery retained, upgraded, modernized with full bore main guns, extending gunnery ranges.

Kongo - flight deck rebuilt as VLS missile battery, small flight deck replacing aft superstructure, hangar for two helos built around new stack for modernized powerplant. Mk13 on either side of the flight deck on weather deck level (the flight deck's up at 03), four 155mm singles forming secondary battery in old 5" positions. Mk25 launchers on top of turrets 2 and 4, hardened against overpressure, for additional point defense. Casemate positions removed entirely, faired over for additional internal space.


These are a couple of the ideas I have in mind for the whole theory. I thought I'd share them and see what others come up with. I'm still kind of bouncing around ideas for the Fuso, and not sure what I'll do with that one. Yamato would get a new stern, flush aft deck, and the flight area turned over to helicopter support, maybe lose the lower step in pre-refit style and have VLS along the broadside, with some form of GMLS mounted on one or two of the old 5" upper mounts. They're all getting upgraded electronics as well, so the additional internal space could be used to accomodate the additional generators or other concepts. Well? Any other ideas? Let's hear them!

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Die Panzerschiffe - Putting the Heavy in Heavy Cruiser since 1940.

It's not Overkill, it's Insurance.

If you think my plastic is crazy, check out my Line Art!
http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e58/S ... %20Images/

First post here, so please go gentle on me.

I've had a thought for a few years now of doing a Yamato with a 1980's Iowa style modernization. I actually have a couple of older (and cheaper) Tamiya Yamato kits I may fix up to test this concept. Another thought I had was of a stretched Yamato with a fourth 18" triple turret added as well as possibly another funnel (got this idea from Admiral Furashita's Fleet - Google it, pretty cool ship whiff's there). I also had an idea of making the Yamato a giant VLS battery or possibly a single ended (USS Boston CAG style) BBG or maybe even a double ended (USS Albany CG style) BBG with magazines and twin railed launchers in place of the main gun turrets.

Even though you closed the door on fixed wing aviation, another idea I had bounced around was making a Yamato with a flight deck in the rear for Harrier type aircraft sort of like one of the proposal's they had floated back in the 80's for the Iowa's. She could also operate Osprey's (coincidentally, would those be allowed since they are technically both fixed wing AND rotary?).

I love all those Skywave weapons sets I've been stockpiling over the years.

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"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today"

Whatever happened to that mother of a carrier they built out of the third Yamato? I want to say one of our subs caught it. Well, either way how about an LPH conversion like some of the Essexes underwent? Since there's no fixed wing aviation she could carry a mean complement of ASW, Heavy Lift, and Assault Helos.

Also, "whose" equipment are we using here? Strictly US or does anything go? Might be neat to mix in some British and Russian weaponry. How about a navalised Mi-28 Hind coupled with some Sea Kings and Sea Lynxes? Ohhh, the possibilities.

Shinano and Taiho? Were those the last IJN carriers? One was the Yamato conversion and there other I think survived the war. Seem to remember a photo of the survivor with an I-Boat moored alongside beneath the isle dwarfed by the giant carrier.

Jason, love your idea of the enlarged Yamato! One thing I'd do is change the disposition of the secondary 6" battery and replace it with a 5"DP battery of either Japanese or US origin. Would make for a more effective gun layout I think. The missile versions would be sweet as well. Imagine the double ended version; 4-6 launchers, with somewhere north of 400 SAMs, AND Yamato's armor! Good luck sinking that thing with anything short of a submarine wolf pack hah!

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Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

I like the way you think. An LPH Shinano would be pretty cool.
Just a quick note, the Mi-28 is the Havoc and the Mi-24 is the Hind. Either would make a pretty cool navalised helo though. I actually had a thought on converting DML's 1/72 Mi-28 into a ship-killer. My problem has always been too many ideas and not enough time to build.


I think Taiho was one of the last IJN carriers to be completed, but not the last. That honor belongs to the Katsuragi which was completed in October of 1944. She survived the war to be used on repatriation duty bringing troops back to Japan after the war ended. She was broken up in Osaka in 1947. Taiho and Shinano were both lost to subs. The Taiho was lost to the USS Albacore and the Shinano to the USS Archerfish, both in 1944.

I agree on the secondary battery. I think I'd just drop it entirely and go with some 5" mounts or possibly a few of those single quick firing 8" mount they tested back in the 1980's.

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"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today"

Jason,

I have to admit, the 80's style refit is an interesting one. The BBG conversion I find unappealing, since the big guns are part of the appeal. That and the sheer weight shift for removing one of those monsters would just be insane. The Concept of the Stretch Yamato isn't a bad one either - I actually have had discussions with the good Admiral before on the subject of naval ideas. As to Ospreys, not sure where they'd fit really, though one could consider them being Rotary Wing by nature, for the sake of the operation.

Cliff,

Shinano LPH would be an interesting idea, though in the scope of the project I'm considering, forbidden - through deck design - I gave New Hyuga as an example on the grounds. Though as a CVS/CVV not a bad idea in theory, since she'd have a massive compliment. Also bounced around were ideas of a Midway SCB-125 style conversion with the angled deck, though not in MY perview personally. As to equipment, technically Anything is game, though for the most part I'm considering Japanese versions of the equipment - for example, I was thinking of using Fuso's lower center mount for conversion into a heavy cruise missile launch and storage area, somewhat like Regulus or V-1. My Twin 5" guns have been whiffed from the older shielded 5" twins, with expansions on the turret and new barrels - look up the Shirane and Sawakaze I did. I don't know if Taiho was last, but she was a rather new build compared to a lot that were conversions. Shinano was taken out by a sub before she finished her fitting out. As to Yamato's 6" guns, they were DP by design, but a matter of better fire control and other integration would be good. Remember, those were the first technical DP Cruiser Guns, so improving on them wouldn't be hard, or conversely turning them over to a somewhat heavier vertical-feed SAM system with a drum feed belowdeck, like a Talos style SAM.

_________________
Die Panzerschiffe - Putting the Heavy in Heavy Cruiser since 1940.

It's not Overkill, it's Insurance.

If you think my plastic is crazy, check out my Line Art!
http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e58/S ... %20Images/

ah someone else doing this. I made a bunch of these when I was a teen (there over 20 yo now)

I have here my:

a)Harusame light patrol/escort – Mk75 76mm, 3-twin 40mm Bofors, 1-Mk25 Sea Sparrow, retains aft quad LLTT W/guided TTs.

b)Ayanami AA escort – 2-Mk33 3”/50 & LR radar in place of 5"/50s, & 3-Mk25 Sea Sparrow in place of LLTT.

c)Shikinami improved AA escort - 2-Mk33 3”/50 in place of 5"/50s, & 3-Mk29 NATO Sea Sparrow in place of LLTT, retains 25mm

& d)Atago – Russian 13cm twins in place of forward 20cm twins (rest of rebuild in progress)

I know you said IJN but here are some non-IJN mods which may give you some Ideas:(all are 700scale)

A&B)Alabama with MK41 in place of the aft 16". Replaced the 2 lower MK38s on each side with MK42s (rof 80rpm!). The others & some of the 40mm quads I replaced with 4-MK15s, 7-GAU-8s & 7-40mm twin Berettas in layered defense. no getting missiles anywhere near me!

C)Fletcher – replaced the Mk30 5"/38s with 4-Mk42 5”/54 & 1-Mk 15, & the aft TT with 1-Mk29 NATO Sea Sparrow(no reloads), retained the forward 21” TT mount

D&E)Nelson – {KBed a KGV into the HMS Lion had parts from each left.} Replaced 2 forward 16” triples with 14” quads (without competing battle ships, the need for “1-up-man-ship” in gun size is not needed so the 14” gun is adequate for NGSF & engaging unarmored ships, this allows for a RoF of 4 rounds per minute @ ½ ton each on only 2 Barbette's). The 3rd turret is replaced by Sea Dart for long range air defense. All 6” twin turrets upgraded to automatic DP mounts. The 12cm tertiary mounts are replaced with; (aft mounts) 2-British 4.5” auto turrets, (all 4 side mounts) 25mm Meroka CIWS, 4 Mk15 added (2 forward of the bridge & 2 aft of the main mast) in place of 2lbx8s, Sea wolf added on the fantail, 5-30mm twins replace 2lb-ers around the funnel & on top of B turret, & 2 quad Exocet box launchers added between funnel & mainmast firing cross deck.

F)O Class (ASW HK patrol) – replaced fore guns with Mk 75 76mm, replaced aft guns with a Mk16 ASROC (no reloads), & an ASW mortar (hedgehog) on a turn table (don’t know if it would work but looked better than in A position), ASW mortar in place of aft TT, retained forward TT (with guided TTs) & added 2 Russian style 30mm CIWS.

G)Tribal – replaced forward turrets with 2-British 4.5” auto turrets, aft turrets & TTs replaced with 1-Mk29 NATO Sea Sparrow & 2-30mm twins, 2-Mk32 triple TTs added (1 each quarter)

H)CM Abdiel – striped most deck weapons off, added 3-Mk75 76mm, 1-Mk29 NATO Sea Sparrow, 1-Mk15 & 2-Mk143 Tomahawk box launchers.

I)German Type 1936A – replaced fore & aft turrets with 3-British 4.5” auto turrets, 4th central turret replaced with Mk16 ARROC (no reloads), & 3 Mk15 added, all TTs retained.

Also here are a couple of contemporary IJN upgrades for increased med AAA capability:

A)Tenryu – replaced 14cm low angle deck mounts with 5”/50 HA type C single turret (though a type B od D twin might be able to go in the fore or aft positions).

B)Fubuki (Special Type 1) – replaced 5”/50 low angle turrets with 5”/40 HA mounts.

Just found my old IJN Isuzu AA mod (modified with 2 more 5"/40 twins abreast the main mast with cruiser type weather shields & enclosed turret on midships mount). I have another built as actual AA mod, but I got to thinking....W/If she survived & was taken over by the Russians. I'm thinking 50/60s (Cuban missile crises) Soviet AA mod with maybe 6-7 45mm/78 quad SM-7s, replace 61cmTT with Soviet 53.3s....What else?

I have a stalled project called the Ghost fleet which envisions a set of IJN warships upgraded fairly continuously through the 1980's due to national pride. Big backstory, and not a lot of completion.

Here's where they all stalled out:

I-400


Akitsushima


Nagara


Mogami


Ise


And I had started on some work to SCB-125 Shinano's sister ship, but everything is pretty much nicely packed away waiting for me to feel inspired again.

On Nagara add deckhouse between Mk32s for Mk16 auto-loader, but leave welldeck to each side.

On I400 replace 14cm aft with Mk45 or OM auto 12.7cm & 25mm's with British 30mm twins. or replace all 3 with Breda 40mm twin turrets.

Decided to mount SSN-9s for my Atago (above), 2 triple mounts (Nanuchka type) each in place of the forward secondaries (though their not visible she'll keep here forward 61cm TTs with sheaths for Russian 53.3cm) & to break up an old Udaloy for parts, SAN-9s and I had an extra aft deck for Mogami post Midway - I added it to her & am going to combine it with the Udaloys helo deck to make her into a CVH. haven't decided on the aft secondary mounts. will add CIWS in place of some of the 25mms & probably some RBUs (maybe 6000s on the catapult mounts to each side)

I was wondering about the Shinano being captured intact at the end of the war. Plans to scrap her are still on hold in 1950 when the Korean war starts. She is rushed into service as an auxiliary with in six months in a crash program. She is on her way to Pusan when the Cochin disaster starts. She is rushed north to take part in the evacuation. I'm thinking diorama. Her deck covered with Korean war era helicopters and piston engine aircraft.

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║ Seasick║
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Actually the Japanese had a small fleet of carriers at the end of the war (several improved Hiryu's survived) they were used for war reparation & POW transports. The thesis for my Atago model (& since you mention it maybe the Shinano) is the Takao is hit at Leyte but not as bad, she makes it back home for repairs, as she's out for a shakedown in the gulf of Korea (perhaps with a few others, I know fuel shortages...) the US blockades Japan and devastates Kure. She takes refuge in Port Arthur & survives intact. after the war she's turned over to Russia as part of reparation agreements. she spends 5-10 years as a reserve ship in Vladivostok before being listed for scrap. she is laid up in mothballs instead due to her being buried in the socialist bureaucracy (maybe some Admiral is using her for increased funding) during some crises (Korea, Reagan buildup...) The USSR finds itself in need of more hulls so someone gets the Idea to pull her from mothballs & give her an upgrade. my current upgrade has all the old Japanese guns removed (lack of ammo) & replaced with whats available, AK-130 13cm twins in place of the forward turrets (the largest modern turrets I had) & SAN-9s from canceled build programs. 4-SSN-9 triples from scraped Nanuchka 1's along side the bridge in place of the forward secondaries, RBU-6000s in place of the catapults, AK-630s (or maybe some other PD mounds) in place of the 25mms, build up the stern for a CGH & retain the 61cm TTs (with sheaths for Russian 533mm TTs). Hadn't decided on the aft secondary gun mounts yet (was thinking 57mm twins from the Nanuchkas but that's redundant with the 13cm turrets, or a pair of SAN-4s & remove the aft TTs {would still have the forward mounts}).
Anyway you made me wonder how the Russians would mod the Shinano if she were retained as a reparation (a 50s mod with Russian 10cm twins & 45mm Quads I think).

As I was looking at my models I found an old Atlanta model (I know not Japanese but) a really crappy model (didn't even have the right turrets - 4 twin & 4 single ???) I started thinking, what if some of the remaining Japanese ships were taken by various Allies (Russia, France, etc..) then sold to various 2nd/3rd world countries (Argentina, Cuba, Greece, Turkey, Pakistan etc...) & they later asked their Allie (that maybe changed...like Cuba) for modern refits. Right after the war Cuba decided it wanted as it's flagship an AA cruiser (the Isuzu maybe) or an Atlanta, then after Castro took over he asked Russia for an upgrade (to help escort the missile convoys?) so a Russia 50s upgrade of Atlanta, Niagara or Isuzu? I'm thinking of a Niagara with 7-45mm quads or an Isuzu with 3-twin-10cm & 3-45-quads. What about Atlanta?

An Idea hit me yesterday for 50s mod (I notice you already have some modern equipment though) personally I would have kept the mid turrets unless your going for a full BBH removal of the cats would clear their arcs, she already had below deck hangers for 22 aircraft, but then I thought of a 50s general combat mod replacing the mid turrets with 2 Mk-4 Twin Terrier launchers (Vertical loading see Boston class CA/G) for area air defence. certainly the 5"/40 twins would be replaced with Mk42 5"54s and Mk33 3"/50s on the aft deck & maybe abreast the main mast (on sponsons just forward of the handling deck) maybe another pair on the upper deck abreast the CT. If your going for modern (western) keep the Mk-42s (already refit & kept on current refit), retain (still in use in the 80s & 90s) or replace Mk-33s with Breda 40mm for longer range AMS, maybe Mk26 replace the old Mk4s (though a refit may allow Mk-4s to store & load SM-1/2 ERs) also lattice mast aft.

I thought maybe another pair of SSN-9s aft (18 missils), or replacing the forward secondary mounts with 2x4-SSN-22s {P-270 Moskit} (8 missiles) but then still what for the aft? Any suggestions?

I think the quad SSN-22s look great in the forward secondary positions, think I'll keep them and move the RBU-6000s to the aft secondary position.
so currently 3 twin 13cm AK-130s forward, 8 SSN-22s in 2 quad racks, 16 61cm TT's fitted with sheaths to fire Russian 53.3cm TT's, 8 AK-630 30mm AMS, 2 RBU-6000s & Helos aft.
Still need to mod the masts (old foremast is too light & flimsy & main mast is long gone).

Couldn't find my USSR Sprues, Spent all weekend (including the 4th) digging threw my closet & back storage area, found them (& a lot I didn't know I was missing) found my 700 Graf Zeppelin & a 700 Saratoga CV-3 I don't even remember buying! Thought of Upgrades for them but couldn't think of anything remarkable. anyway, continued work on my Atago, added Bandstand in place of the side directors, just aft of the bridge (you can just see at the edge of the pic, the grey and black just below the fore funnel) I also removed the forward radar to replace the mast (upgrading to a mast I scavenged from a 350th scale JPJ DD-932 - thicker & more room for equipment) I plan to put Quad SSN-22s in place of the forward secondaries & was thinking of SAN-9 or SAN-7s for the aft secondaries (the aft TTs are under them so they would have to go but she could keep the 2 quad forward mounts) & AK-630s in place of some of the Type 96 25mm Hotchkiss & RBUs on platforms in place of the catapults. Any suggestions?

Also started on my old Isuzu, I have 2 of them & rebuilt the 2nd (a long time ago) with 2 additional 127/40 twins in spray shields (on sponsuns each side where the old 14cm were). she broke anyway, so I stripped her guns & was looking at refits, could replace the original 3-127/40 twins with Russian AK130 13cm twin autos, AK-630s & SSN-3s on each side of the bridge where I removed the extra mounts from, or I could do an early 60s with 3-45mm quads (look perfect in the fore and aft positions) AK-230s & SSN-2s on the side, or even 5-45mm quads. any suggestions here as well? (of course she will keep her 2 quad 61cm TTs, replaced the aft twins & forward mounts were removed, & add RBUs) wanted to use Russian 10cm twin cruiser mounts but don't have any (would have to mod German 105s) also had the thought of moding the Nagara with 7 twin 57mm as an AA-escort.