The Ship Model Forum

Length: 89.44 m (293.4 ft) 88,20m (CWL)
Beam: 15.2 m (50 ft)
Draft: 7.85 m (25.8 ft)
Propulsion:

1 shaft
1 steam engine
8 box boilers

Sail plan: Barque-rigged
Speed: 14.7 kn (27.2 km/h; 16.9 mph)
Range: 3,200 nmi (5,900 km; 3,700 mi) at 10 kn (19 km/h; 12 mph)
Complement:

33 officers
508 enlisted

Armament:

Deck & Back: 2 × 21 cm (8.3 in) L/22 guns Krupp RBL
Centralbattery: 14 × 21 cm L/19 guns Krupp RBL

Armor:

Belt: 114–124 mm wrought iron on 254 mm teak
Battery:114–121 mm w.i. on 254 mm teak

Builder: Samuda Brothers, London
Laid down: 1867
Launched: 6 May 1867
Commissioned: 19 September 1867
Fate: Scrapped in 1921

She will be built as an WLmodel, with the rigging shortened for action by giving away the Royal and Topgallant yards and masts. So the show case doesn't need to be too high - and I can show the guns in firing position...
Yours,
Gorg

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Lets fill the gap between the ships of the line of Trafalgar and Jutland!
The Avatar is the flag flying over first prussian major ironclad SMS Kronprinz of 1876.

Gorg, if you tell me which guns in what kind of carriage you actually need, I may be able to help. I could check in the literature for the appropriate guns of KRONPRINZ, but it depends on the period you want to represent. I have a lot of original literature on naval artillery for the period 1860 to 1890.

Good to see another ironclad in the making.

wefalck

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Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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A pitty that it will be a WL ship, but still looking forward to any progress on it

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The merchant shipyard

@weflack:
Thanks I'm highly interested in any infgormation about Kronprinze...
BTW: she was the 1rst german big armourclad - the source of the Hochseeflotte*!
And - at the moment I can't write in the "Kaiserliche Marine".

@Neptue:

It has all to do with the showcase's dimensions... I could either build a waterlinemodel with battlerigging or a hullmodell (to translate it word by word from german) so I'll build without rigging and adding the underwater part... The Waterlinemodel gives a realistic view of the ship as it has been seen the most days of it's live... onnly in the drydock you might have seen the underwater part...

At the moment I can avoid the Griffith propeller... but I think about copying my own work by building a "hullmodel" reconstructing the underwater part from the underwatersections shown on the very right of the plan odaling with the lower decks.

As I promissed the pictures are added in this week (today) - so you can see the problem with the altered bowsprit and the "detailed troubels" wir added parts like the charthouse, that is in the Imperial Navy Plan but not in the time of the first bowsprit on deck.


Hope you have fun,
Gorg


*Perpaps I shod show her beside S.M.S. Kronprinz (Wilhelm)

_________________
Lets fill the gap between the ships of the line of Trafalgar and Jutland!
The Avatar is the flag flying over first prussian major ironclad SMS Kronprinz of 1876.

Gorg, you need to be more specific about what guns and carriages you are looking for. The material is too abundand otherwise and I have no time to research which would be applicable for SMS KRONPRINZ.

BTW the terms are either 'armoured' or 'ironclad'. The latter is more used for the, say, pre-1890s ships that had iron or soft steel armour, as opposed to later ships that had hardened steel armour.

wefalck

_________________
Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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Yes weflack - that may be right. It is the rifeled Krupp (Mantel)Ringkanone 21cm L22 (L means 21cm multiplicated twentytwotimes is the length of the barre.) for the upperdeck twice (the hunting- and retiringgun) and fourteen times 21cm diameter L19 barrellength in the centralbattery. The Meyers Conversationslexicon III.Edition told me that Friedrich Carl and Kronprinz got the same armarment. Here the translation of the test below the engraving: The text means:
Short 21cm ring naval gun (4meters barrel length) on a boardside gubncarriage the german armoured frigates "Kronprinz" and "Friedrich Cark" Typ of the boardside-and upperdeck-frame guncariage with front-pintle.
Perchance this is helpful to you.

The austrian Erzherzog Ferdinand Max, Habsburg and Don Juan d'Austria had aftrer there fiscalic-forced "rebuilt" the 21 Krupp on board... but what Type, on what kind of guncarriage???




Thanks, that is quite new to me I thought the two terms/concepts would be used synonym, as I read it very often in books and the www. So I got used to this error. Thank you very much - wrought-iron it is called - so it is really a soft iron. So it sh-/could be called wrought-iron-claded...

I also plan to show on the baseplate the heavyness/thicknesss of the armouing as it was originally 124mm wrought iron on 254mm teak package vertically disposed (source: Kronenfels)

Thank you very much,

Gorg

_________________
Lets fill the gap between the ships of the line of Trafalgar and Jutland!
The Avatar is the flag flying over first prussian major ironclad SMS Kronprinz of 1876.

Every 'iron-clad' is 'armoured', but not every 'armoured' ship is iron-clad. Indeed, the first armour plate was iron wrought under huge steam hammers. Krupp developed a process for casting alloyed steel that then was rolled into armour plate.

The properties of the composite armour evolved in history as the projectiles fired at it evolved. The first armour was mainly designed to fragment on impact the rather brittle cast-iron cannon balls and shells of the time and thus render them less dangerous to the structure of the ship. When ogival shot and shells fired from rifled guns appeared, the energy of the impact had to be dissipated within the armour plate, which means it had to be hard and tough (i.e. resistant against brittle deformation) at the same time. The wooden backing takes up some of the energy transmitted through the armour plate by the impact without impacting the structure of the ship.

I'll check my sources on the 21 cm RK/L22 (Vorderpivotllafette für Pfortenwechsel ?) and 21 cm RK/L19 (Vorderpivot-Breitseitlafette), but it may take a few days.

wefalck

_________________
Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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That would be wonderful!!!
But I'm affraild of the diffrend Marks during the Years - the altered in the RN very fast i.e._ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RML_7_inch_gun
Pictures: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... uselang=de

Thanks a lot!

_________________
Lets fill the gap between the ships of the line of Trafalgar and Jutland!
The Avatar is the flag flying over first prussian major ironclad SMS Kronprinz of 1876.

Which is why I said, that one needs to pin down a period in which the ship is supposed to be set.

I had a quick look over some of the material (I am preparing currently for a 10-day mission to Central Asia, so not much time). The early career of SMS KRONPRINZ is part of a rather turbulent and unsettled period as far as artillery development is concerned. The plans for her armament were modernised, while she still being built and fitted out. In fact, her first commissioning was delayed until May 1869 because of that. She was originally foreseen to receive what were then called 72 pounder breech-loading guns, but due the beginning arms race between guns and armour, Krupp was asked to improve the designs onf the guns. About the same time the denomination of guns changed from using the nominal weight of the projectile to caliber and caliber-length, plus some note on the way of construction. In our case it became the 'kurze 21 cm Ring-Kanone' (kz. 21 cm R.K. or 21 cm R.K./L19) and lg. 21 cm R.K. or 21 cm R.K./L21 for the chasing guns.

I am still looking for drawings, but one may have to puzzle them together from different sources.

BTW, there is a slight mistake in your avatar (which was uploaded by me, I think) and the reference to SMS KRONPRINZ. She only may have flown the Prussian Naval Ensign during her transfer from her yard in England to Prussia (under the command of Commander Henk - who was the author of 'Zur See'), but then she was unarmed. Alternatively, she might have flown the Prussian Merchant Flag (my avatar), if not commissioned as a man-of-war for the transfer. When in service, she would have flown the ensign of the Nordeutsche Bund (1867-1871, http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norddeutscher_Bund), which after 1871 became the ensign of the Imperial German Navy (Reichkriegsflagge).

wefalck

_________________
Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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some images of kronprinz
ciao peppe

Here two images of the broadside carriage model C/68 for the 21 cm RK/l19 in found in a French 'naval intelligence' book of 1883 in my library:





Source: MINISTÉRE DE LA MARINE ET DES COLONIES [Ed.] (1883): Mémorial de l’artillerie de marine.- 1re (Pl. 1-13) livraison, Paris (Imprimerie Lemercier et Cie.).


wefalck

_________________
Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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Thanks a lot, now I can give a qualified reply to the barrel as a picture. This is a longitudinal cut through a L/22 barrel that fits perfectly to the carriage above

And because every Clue needs a beginning - I began with the largest boat on the armoured frigate: "Pinnace".

My idea is to build here a clkinker planked boat in thick paper

Inside of a clinkered fishing boat:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _innen.jpg
Outside of the same:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 3%9Fen.jpg

The main Problem is called "Landung" in German the fine line to glue each plank onto the other.
And the MUST fit perfectly! Any error is shown by a thread of light between the planks

So there is a plenty to do - b.t.w.: books about boatbuilding from Chapelle and Bermingham are most helpful to me.

Thank you for following my thread!

Yours Chris

_________________
Lets fill the gap between the ships of the line of Trafalgar and Jutland!
The Avatar is the flag flying over first prussian major ironclad SMS Kronprinz of 1876.

The large boats were not cklinker-built only 'Kutter', 'Gig' and 'Jolle' (according to BRIX, 1878).

wefalck

_________________
Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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Now neptune,
there is one very easy reason for this: I am horroified by the complex screw:

_________________
Lets fill the gap between the ships of the line of Trafalgar and Jutland!
The Avatar is the flag flying over first prussian major ironclad SMS Kronprinz of 1876.

That's interesting because Dirk Nottelmann conducted on his planset of Prinz Adalbert:

"All boats clinkered" :Huh

Brix is very close to 1867, so I'll follow you wefalck! And according to this I'll break my fingers and optic nerve later with the smaller boats

Thanks a lot,

Christian

_________________
Lets fill the gap between the ships of the line of Trafalgar and Jutland!
The Avatar is the flag flying over first prussian major ironclad SMS Kronprinz of 1876.

I don't see anything really horrifying there... That's exactly why it's a pitty that it's a waterline model. These "strange" (not so uncommon for those days though) arrangements always give something extra to a ship model.
It's like building an airplane without a canopy and top, because you always see the underside of it when it's in the air...
I agree it's not always easy to find dry dock pictures and if you go for a propellor also the sea in-and outlets should be added, not always easy.
It's a choice and I respect that very much though. It'll be a great model for sure, even without a propellor and lower hull. I'm very interested by the shape of any hull or ship, so I'll keep following this for sure. Hope to see some progress soon

_________________
The merchant shipyard

Neptune,

I can understand your argumentation - but with underwaterpart AND warrigging she will be to high for the showcase... and the WLmodel showes here as she had hab been seen outside of the dock...

Perchance I'll build a hull modell without rigging later due to the high of the showcase, a comparemodel in 1/350 for the ICM lastik kit of Kronprinz of 1915 or a RC model in a bit lager scale 1/75... but after...
AFTER the completition of the first Kronprinz .

The trapp of defexion is allways ready...

My fingers have been too wet today by sweat to do anithing without PCwork - it dropped in the books and paper get wet by touching it... so I've decided to look for some boat kits and found those you can see upsidedown

The pinace will be build slowly step by step... and the rest will be built pice by pice...

Yours
Chris

_________________
Lets fill the gap between the ships of the line of Trafalgar and Jutland!
The Avatar is the flag flying over first prussian major ironclad SMS Kronprinz of 1876.

Hallo Peppe!

Thanks a lot... the drawing is highly interesting... there is a very good book with drawings of ironclads - in italian - perhaps you may know it???
It might be helpful for my project.

Yours
Christian

_________________
Lets fill the gap between the ships of the line of Trafalgar and Jutland!
The Avatar is the flag flying over first prussian major ironclad SMS Kronprinz of 1876.

The Italian book probably is

BARGONI, F., GAY, F., GAY, V.M. (2001): Navi a vela e navi miste Italiane (1861-1887) - Fregate, corvette, brigantini, golette, e avvisi.- 541 p., Roma (Ufficio Storico della Marine Militare).

but it is not helpful for your project. Honestly, why are you searching up and down and sideways, while people in the German forum have pointed you to the source .... Just don't try cobble together things from secondary sources.

A bit frustrated

wefalck

_________________
Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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Hello, wefalck!

From time to time, you may find interesting details on the sideways of literature... Here the ropes and bails for the gunport's lids. There some information noone else attached importance to and in his own book wrote it off.

First weigh it - than dare it.
Helmuth von Motke the Elder

But now to the boats kit I bought:

It's a cutter and a yawl manufactured by a company near Bielefeld - they use to deliever PoF-Kits. The mould is from gypsum, the the Fframes will be made from wood by watering and using a 30W soldering iron.

Till the next progress,

Yours,
Christian

_________________
Lets fill the gap between the ships of the line of Trafalgar and Jutland!
The Avatar is the flag flying over first prussian major ironclad SMS Kronprinz of 1876.