Calling all Soviet Kirov-class (Орлан) Project 1144 & Slava-class (Атлант) Project 1164 fans

[Admiral John Byng]

I spent some time catching up on the whole thread, but I have a few things to share that I think might be pertinent for some of the questions/issues that I noticed did not seem resolved.

1 - the Launch from Frunze's Bow:

A - Too far forward for SA-N-9.
B - Hot vs Cold Launch - SA-N-9 is cold launched, with a nose-mounted rocket that kicks it down towards horizontal before the main motor kicks in. What you're seeing are, possibly, the Tin Man rocket launchers which are right in that area and hot launch.
C - I'm not sure there's a whole hell of a lot of detail to be Had on the SA-N-9 launcher, looking at the ones in the video I posted below. Not as much as the S-300F launchers on, say, Slava Class.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuH3VL-IP4g -- starting at 9:00 it goes through weapon systems 9:49 is a SA-N-9 launch, notice no burner until it's on trajectory.

2 - the varying deck colours: I think it was Neptune and I had a discussion about this some time back, and the black deck is actually a fresh coat of the Russian Anti-skid coating. It starts out that dark, and especially on the North Fleet it is a sticky, tarry type substance with grit as well as a sticky nature, so it does not freeze in the cold and flake off. The Orange is the typical deck paint. I'm not entirely sure about the Green, might be a different anti-skid or a paint for some use with the helicopters in low light. You don't tend to see that green anywhere outside of aircraft zones though. There are pictures of the Kievs with the whole aircraft area painted in that green, but anywhere else was standard deck orange. The brown colour observed on Moskva is likely, as theorized, weathering of the surface.

3 - something else I noticed about the picture of PTG's Bow - there's a new dome on the center of the forward radar farm, a white dome. That's new, as it looks to be in the spot where the Forward Cross Swords radar should be if it were mounted. Not sure what that's all about.

4 - Rritchie71's comparison pictues - these seem to be of Nakhimov/Kalinin, owing to the fact it's got Kashtan on the side of the rear superstructure. In the first picture, that's not Top Steer on top of her aft mast, that looks more like Plate Steer, where it's one array and a dish, which might suggest why it was removed, as Plate Steer wasn't used on many ships before Top Plate came into service (good example, look at the Sovremenny Class, they served with Top Steer, Plate Steer AND Top Plate units on different hulls). Top Dome has been removed, which is interesting, could be a lead-in to Tombstone installation. Something missed, was the fact that Kite Screech is also missing from its usual place just abaft of the Top Dome position. If you really look, even her Forward Top Dome has been removed from its place on top of the bridge.

Just a few things I thought I could share input on.

Sorry for the late arrival, I'm new to Russian/Soviet ships.
I think the missile being launched (thanks for the link BTW) is a SA-N-6 as the launchers are in that area and also the size of the missile. Thanks for the info on SA-N-9, great launch shots.

[Admiral John Byng]

Hi all

I have previously discussed some thoughts on an upcoming 1/350 Pyotr Velikiy that I hope to start in month or so and have come across a few new questions that I wanted to ask for assistance?

1) With Tomb Stone fitted as per instructions is there any point in fitting (forward or aft) the spare "Top Dome" (as a back up so to speak)?

2) I have seen and read the various discussions on deck colour, but I would like to ask for "below waterline" has another colour ever been used or trialled like Brown or Black? (I think a Slava class CG may have been Black below waterline at one stage)? Apologies in advance if I am wrong on this point.

Thanks for any assistance.

Peter H
Sydney, AU

From what I have read, the radar fitted is not tombstone but Trap Door. The Trap door is part of the Front Door/Front Piece family and is used to guide the anti ship missiles not the SA-N-6. So the Top Dome is the correct director for the SA-N-6.

[Sauragnmon]

Unfortunately, John, that's not an SA-N-6 - they're a fairly long missile, to begin, and there are videos of the SA-N-6 launch, specifically off one of the Kirov decks. The missile is, like the SA-N-6, a cold-launch missile, and again, the placement of the missile's point of launch is even further on the scale of "Too Far Forward" for a SA-N-6 launch. SA-N-9 is often assumed, because it's off the forecastle, but it isn't true as pointed out previously. It's a chaff launch, or maybe one of the RBU rockets off the forecastle.

[Admiral John Byng]

Hi Sauragnmon, are you referring to the pic on p.33 posted by Neptune or another missile launch?
I might have got mixed up here.

[Sauragnmon]

The one by Neptune is unmistakably an S-300F/SA-N-6. That I will not dispute. I thought you were referencing the all too common shot of a smoke-blast off the forecastle of Frunze that you can find on, say, Wikipedia, where they claim that it is an SA-N-9. No Kirov has ever had her bow SA-N-9 launchers in place, nor has it had the required Klinok/Cross Swords Fire Control Radar on that position. Similarly, as I said, SA-N-9 is a Cold-Launch like the S-300F - the launcher kicks it a good couple meters in the air, a short-burn motor in the nose kicks the nose down to trajectory, and THEN the main motor kicks in. There's good video footage of the system acting off the side of the Kuznetsov.

[Admiral John Byng]

Ah, I was mixed-up, it was Neptune's photo I was talking about. I haven't seen the one you mean.
I am looking forward to starting my Varyag and I have ordered Pyotr Veliky too!

[Sauragnmon]

This would be the picture I was talking about. You can even see a second launch near the deck. It's from the Chaff Launcher system, as it tends to fire two shots at once when firing. Notice how far forward it is, practically next to the RBU launcher on the forecastle, FAR too forward for the SA-N-9, and nothing like its launch profile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SA-N- ... ze%29.JPEG

[Admiral John Byng]

That must create a big cloud of chaff but I suppose these ships are so big they need it. I didn't see this mystery when I went through the pages but I am glad you have cleared it up. Another mystery (to me) was the round things with spouts that looked like the Russian heavy duty fire extinguisher nozzles and a big red star on them. Eventually i found a reference to them in these invaluable pages and only then discovered they are decoy launchers!

EDIT: Actually, I think these are the same things. I seem to be getting confused all over the place!

[Ticonderoga]

Hi All,

A long shot I know, but does anyone have a rough idea of what the diameter of the rivets around the superstructure and bridge windows on the Slava would be?

Andrew

[Ticonderoga]

Hi All,

A quick quote from a February military magazine


By Rear Admiral Viktor Burusk, Deputy Commander Russian Navy:

Burusk said that Russia will continue the repair and overhaul of the �Admiral Nakhimov� � The Kirov class cruiser, previously known as the Kalinin. Nakhimov is due to rejoin the flet in 2018 with the most advanced weapons systems for its vessel type. The Russian Navy will receive 40 new warships and auxiliaries in 2014.

Exciting times for the Russian Navy!

[Haijun watcher]

With the events currently transpiring in the Ukraine, if the country splits in two, or if the pro-Russian eastern half of the country is absorbed by Russia, does anyone here think that Russia will simply just absorb the cruiser VILNA UKRAINIA into their navy? Or perhaps for the navy of an independent Eastern Ukraine? Or sell the ship on the arms market to a buyer such as India/China?

Last I read, that Slava class cruiser was currently being completed for the Ukrainian Navy with Russian help.

There is even a Trumpeter kit available of the VILNA UKRAINIA in 1/700.

[Neptune]

To be honest, I doubt that ship will ever see service.
She looks rather shabby at the moment. She looks more or less complete, but the equipment and paint looks in a deplorable state. Not at all new, and that's what you'd want when you "buy" a new ship. Without any sign of maintenance she may already be beyond repair/use. Perhaps they'll just take off whatever they can for spares.
If they would take it after all, it would probably take up a large amount of budget, in a Nakhimov-fashion... for little use.
I'm not sure about that kit. The Ukraina actually has different funnels etc. I have my doubts Trumpeter took that in account.

As for foreign buyers. There's probably nobody interested. The main interest would be the Vulkan anti-ship missile (the Rif was already copied by the Chinese, so no interest in that anymore). And that Vulkan has such a range that it cannot be sold abroad. Refitting her would again cost a lot of money and the general ship structure is outdated by far now, no real stealth features. It would just become a floating missile battery, a very visible one at that. I doubt she'd last long in today's battlefield.

[Ticonderoga]

Hello to all you internet sleuths. I am looking for some pictures of inside the bridge of Varyag, can anyone help?

So far I have these:

http://army-news.ru/2011/09/flagman-tof ... er-varyag/

Thanks

Andrew

[chuck]

Hi All,

A quick quote from a February military magazine


By Rear Admiral Viktor Burusk, Deputy Commander Russian Navy:

Burusk said that Russia will continue the repair and overhaul of the �Admiral Nakhimov� � The Kirov class cruiser, previously known as the Kalinin. Nakhimov is due to rejoin the flet in 2018 with the most advanced weapons systems for its vessel type. The Russian Navy will receive 40 new warships and auxiliaries in 2014.

Exciting times for the Russian Navy!

I suspect the work on admiral nakhimov is not in earnest. There is no real intention to restore her to any real level of readiness. Instead I think it is a smoke screen to justify some portion of the naval budget without revealing the real use of the budget.

[Neptune]

Not entirely sure about that. There is some progress since they have now removed the old radars from Nakhimov. Of course the question is always whether that is for scrapping preparation or overhaul. Also the budget itself for doing this job may actually be lower than what they announce with the remaining money going somewhere else...
Will be difficult to tell. I'm also assuming that money that was allocated in the past was mainly used for redesigning the ship for modifications, such redesign can take a lot of time and money without being visible at all on the ship itself. Perhaps now with removal of the radars and additional money they have finally started the upgrade.

[Timmy C]

Four new photos of Admiral Nakhimov on keel blocks - sadly, no good angles on the mid-lower hull that would answer all our questions: http://kuleshovoleg.livejournal.com/356322.html

Right click the images and open them in a new window/tab to see them full size.

[Neptune]

Yeah there have been more pics of Nakhimov dry, but mostly the lower part is obscured by darkness. Perhaps some gamma change in the picture would shed some light, but the latest versions of paint don't have that option anymore, so I can't really do it.

Something interesting as well is a dry dock picture of Lazarev. She appears to have the Udaloy style bubbles above her propellors. Also the propellors are interesting as it now appears that only Kirov was initially fitted with the four-bladed props, while all the other have five-blade props. Also Kirov was refitted with 5-blade versions I believe.
This looks like a typical "camouflage" job with current situation. In the end she is completely dismantled (seen pics of the inside), but they want it to look like it is in relatively good shape. They put the white waterline marking on starboard side and not on portside, as you can see also the anti-fouling is properly applied (she's not going to sail anyway). She was and probably will be moored alongside with portside alongside, so that from a distance you get to see the nice side with waterline etc.

[Neptune]

And here are these Nakhimov pics.

It looks to me like she also has these bubbles as just aft of the prop above it you can see something curving on the hull.





For now I really don't see any indication of a hull mounted sonar. I'm actually pretty sure there isn't any. Normally you can't combine these sonars since the bulbous bow generates air bubbles that would disturb any hull mounted sonar. You could put it more aft, but then you'd have more disturbance from the engine room noises and propulsion system. On the Lazarev picture also I don't see any stop in the dry dock blocks that would indicate a hull mounted sonar. The Nakhimov picture, if cleaned up by gamma balance, could provide more info.
Not sure why they put these rather huge structures on her sides and stern before taking her out of the water. Looks a bit extensive to be just working platforms... Perhaps they don't really trust the hull anymore?

[Ticonderoga]

For now I really don't see any indication of a hull mounted sonar. I'm actually pretty sure there isn't any. Normally you can't combine these sonars since the bulbous bow generates air bubbles that would disturb any hull mounted sonar.

Hi guys,

I would not be too quick to jump to the conclusion that there is no sonar in the foward bulb.

Our old Charles F Adams class DDGs (Brisbane Hobat and Perth) all had a similar bulbous bow and the bulb did contain AN-SQS 23, a powerful medium to long range active sonar array. When conducting sonar sweeps, the ship was constrained to a certain speed so as to be able to "hear" the resulting echos. Speed of advance had no affect, good or otherwise, on the ability to transmit.

In the case of the Kirovs it is possible? that the bulb contains the very powerful Low Frequency active sonar (Horse Jaw), which may work in tandem with the VDS (Horse Tail). The bow sonar will transmit lots of sound and the VDS can be moved between the isothermal layers, looking for the returns from targets attempitng to "sit in the layer".

Just a thought.

Andrew

[Neptune]

Hi Andrew,

we're not talking about the bulb itself, that one does contain a sonar. The question is whether the Kirov class also had a hull mounted sonar in addition to the bow (bulb) mounted sonar. On some models, I believe also the Trumpeter model, such hull mounted sonar is depicted. It is however never proven to be present (or absent for that matter).
A hull mounted sonar is mounted below the keel, positioned somewhere around 2/3rd in length from the stern, as a compromise to avoid intereference from air bubbles from the bow and noise from the aft propulsion and power train.
If you have a sonar like that, in most cases there is no bulbous bow nor bow mounted sonar, like the Perry class, Grisha class and many more.
Considering we know the Kirovs to have a pronounced bulbous bow with a sonar and a full VDS, it is therefore unlikely that she would also have a keel mounted unit in addition to that.