The Ship Model Forum

Great question, Frank!

I'd like to, very much.

The Good: the 1936 tower design is accurate through March, 1942, when the ship pulled into Pearl for her last refit (when she lost her 8" gun turrets).

The Bad: Presently, I have just one really good photo of the tower after that refit (see James Noblin video capture photo below), and of the starboard side only. While there is a lot of other research material showing the funnel, available photos of the tower after the Pearl Harbor refit seem to be nearly non-existent. Photos of the ship at Coral Sea are indistinct, blurry or smoke-shrouded at best.

It's clear from the photos I have access to that the Flag Plotting Station (the level above the Pilot House) was lengthened forward at Pearl Harbor in April, '42 and it and the splinter shield look like Saratoga's but the details, extents and dimensions are awfully uncertain. Additionally, there appears to be a small, roundish platform partially enclosed by a solid shield fixed to the forward face of the wind break on the upper top Fire Control Station (the large uppermost platform on top the tripod).

With this photo, and making a whole lot of assumptions and some guesses, I could make a May '42 design now.

Thoughts?

I think the Trumpeter representation of the Flag Plotting Station, though good looking, is not accurate. Trumpeter's enclosure at the front of the Flag Plotting Station is done as a solid with windows. Photos indicate that the enclosure appearing in Coral Sea photos was probably a temporary, canvas-like structure, and looks nothing like Trumpeter's design.

The aft spotting top is absent in photos of the ship in May but the forward top appears the same as it did in 1936 so no spotting top mod to the 1936 design is necessary except to delete the aft top from the design.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

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Thanks for the reply Steve. I think a lot of people have struggled with the mods made to Lexington. As I recall Steve Wiper looked for many years before publishing his Lexington photo book and a number of members on this Board have made modifications when building the Trumpeter 1/350 kit based on what info and photos are available. You have really nailed down the major areas and I don't think there is anything else that is going to pop up photo or plan wise to help make anything 100% accurate. That being said I think you have a enough knowledge and info to get it very close. You might check the Lexington comments about this in the Calling All Warship section if you have not already. I think there is a lot of discussion there about this subject.

It might help if you did the 3D drawing of the structure and post on here asking for comment from those who have done the conversion already and ask Steve Wiper to comment. I am sure people will help out. I would order one in 1/700 and 1/350 even if it is just as close as we can get based on info we have. Any improvement is better than what is in the 1/700 and 1/350 Trumpeter kits. Or just put it up on Shapeways and see how sales go if it is not too much trouble based off of the work you have already done. I would still order both scales. I have the 42 Sara on order in 1/700 and plan to order the 1936 Sara in both scales and 36 Lex in 1/700. Thanks for the great work.

Thanks for the advice, Frank!

I'll 'gin up a May '42 Lex and let you all make recommendations for tweaking.

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Steve,

For what it is worth, this what Stern put in his "Lexington Class Carriers" book regarding Lex's extended flag plot (emphasis mine):

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This certainly sounds authoritative. It does, however, complicate a 3D design since no useful drawings or good photos of the shape, dimensions and extents of the enclosed structure appear to available.

I'm afraid at this point, without better references, to proceed with a 3D design for USS Lexington on May 8th, 1942 that would be better than Trumpeter's offering would be very speculative. I'll post a screen shot of the design without the enclosure and invite comments.

Thoughts?

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Here are a couple screenshots of a starting point for the design. This has, basically, Saratoga's Flag Plotting Station and deck on a rough draft of Lexington's 1936 tower.

No enclosure. But it could be speculated that the enclosure follows the angular splinter shield and that there was probably one shatterproof glass panel per shield facet. The top of the enclosure would probably be level with the roof of the Flag Plot. How far back it extends could be extrapolated from the number of glass panels visible in May 8th photos, assuming that the glass panels were all the same size, which seems reasonable.

The boxy structure under the Spotting Top is a Radio Direction Finding Station. I think it is the same structure that appears in May 8th photos so I would leave it in the design. Saratoga did not have this feature from about 1933 onward. In 1941, one was added above and forward of Sara's Pilot House.

These drawings also give you some indication of the detail designed into the models now available.

From this rudimentary design, is there enough information (facts and reasonable assumptions) from which to design an enclosure that would be acceptable to the modeler (a significant improvement over the Trumpeter design) and worth the cost to the modeler? In other words, would you buy this? Your thoughts, please.

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Looks great! I would have bought this for the Lex at Coral Sea diorama I finished earlier this year.

I would change a couple of things however:

1. The enclosure
The print of NH 76560 photo in Steve Wipers last book shows the enclusere better, but still not really clearly. But at least it clearly shows it's presence. The windows are clear and of similar size as the pilot's house's, and the roof seems strait and solid. I believe this was a permanent structure indeed.
I also believe what we see in the NARA pic is only the beginning of this addition, or even just a mock-up. This photo might have been taken around the same time as the series in which the 8" guns were removed, when the refit was clearly not complete. For example, the 20mm gun gallery on the former boat platform at the base of the funnel has not been added yet.
I purchased a high resolution scan from this photo, but it doens't get really clearer than the print in the Warship pictorial book. I think the NH 76560 photo shows clear enough that the enclosure extends all the way to the front, to at least the same level as the pilot house's front. But it is not so clear how far to the sides it goes (I think all the way to the splinter shields indeed, but the splinter shields might have been replaced by other plate material?), or how far to the back. All in all, I feel Trumpeters rendition of this area is not to bad, given the scarce evidence.
But I do understand leaving it of, so the modeller can add his own interpretation. But I certainly would add it myself.

2. The spinter shield on the forward end of the spotting top
The famous pic of Lex with painted bow wave in '41 shows that it is a different shape than before. It is set more forward, with rounded sides towards the back, and it seems less high. Also, I cannot see any reinforing ribs on it's front face anymore. The NARA photo shows this item also, from the side.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... r_1941.jpg

3. The little windows at the base of the Radio Direction Finding Station are clearly present on the above photo, but seem to be missing from the NH 76560 photo. I mistakenly left the entire Radio Direction Finding Station of my model (which should be there really), but I would leave these windows of. But maybe this level was openable/removeable?

4. The NH 76560 photo shows something in front of the Radio Direction Finding Station, which Steve Wiper interpretes as a FC radar antenna. I followed this idea on my model, but it is best represented by PE. And since it is uncertainly, maybe it is best left of indeed.

5. At the aft top end of the flag setting station, there were two 24' search lights, on semi-circular platforms (moved up from previous location). These are easily added by the modeller, but could be a good addition for your product.

6. I would prefer to have the splinter shields present around the 1.1' AA gun platform (previous 8' gun location) An extra platform for the lower position in front of this would be a nice addition, so all the splinter shields would be identical.

7. I would prefer to do the two rear poles of the pole mast in brass rod/tube for extra crispness (I would be affraid of any roughness due to the printing process of these inclined and round items). I would therefore prefer them not to be on the part, but instead holes through the different platforms through which brass rod of the appropriate diameter would easily fit. But of course, that's just me, and your other customers might have a different opinion.

8. There was quite some spinter matting around the bridge. The inclined facets you added to the front of the pilot's house were actually spinter mats (the NARA photo shows their irregularity, and it is also visible in one of the 8' inch turrets removal photo's). I would therefore prefer to have this irregular aspect reproduced on the part, or have them left of completely to be added by the modeller.
There was also splinter matting hung straith vertically around the splinter shields of the pilot's house level. I also would like to have these added, if the above parts are included.
I am not sure if the flag plot level had splinter matting against the splinter shields. This seems plausible, but on my model I opted not to have them, for the sake of visual variation (yes: artistic license! ).
On the other levels, splinter matting was added on railing. This might indeed be best left to the modeller: PE railing with plastic sheet splinter mats. But 3Dprinted splinter mats to add to the PE would be nice too.

9. A better version of the 8' director/rangefinder would be nice as a separate part. It seems to be still present on the NH 76560 photo and other Coral Sea photo's, in the exact location as the NARA photo.

Please don't see above suggestions as criticism. My own rendition is certainly not accurate on several points, so I just want to provide some ideas and suggestions.
I wish something like this was available when I was doing mine, I would have certainly bought it! It would have saved me a lot of time, and the end result would have been better.

And if you feel like it: Trumpeter's funnel assembly could also do with a replacement (lower position of 20mm gun gallery, different shape structures to the front base of the funnel, different shape of radar control room and without windows, different shape of top of funnel, ammo lift details, ...)
One benefit: if you offer these together, the modeller could have identical splinter shields around the 1.1' gun platfroms, front and rear.

Cheers,

Marijn

Marijn, superb analysis! Thank you!!


Thank you! Your Lexington is a miracle of modeling.


Agreed. I would like to add it and I think there is enough evidence (barely) to make a reasonable representation of it.


I think there is an additional platform here that has been fixed to the front of the splinter shield but raised a bit. It looks like the platform extends rearwards through the splinter shield (an opening cut for it) between the two inner rangefinders. If true, what is the shape of the rear of the platform behind the shield?


Agreed. It seems reasonable that the windows were closable by shutters or panels which is why they alternate present and absent from photos of the RDF Station on both Lexington and Saratoga.


Agreed. Better done in PE.


Ah yes, I inadvertently deleted them when merging Saratoga's Flag Station with Lexington's tower. Oops.


Agreed. I'll add it.


Brass is certainly a stronger an smoother material.


The inclined area you see in the design forward of the pilot house is a complex steel venturi, a feature of the ship from about 1936, over which splinter mats were placed. Look closely at the photo on page 39 of Steve Wiper's Warship Pictorial #33, you'll see the venturi behind the splinter mats. Although I could certainly design these mats, I think the natural irregular appearance of the mats would be better, more realistically accomplished by the modeler. A 3D design would look artificially uniform.


I'd like to include one. Still looking for good drawings and up-close photos. If good references can't be found, I'll omit it in favor of the Trumpeter part until good references are available.


Indeed! Please be advised that analysis indicates that a complete 3D-printed funnel is likely to be very expensive due to the volume of printed material needed to make one. I intend to design one, however, but fear few sales due to very high cost. Perhaps there are features of the funnel that can be designed for 3D printing as lower cost alternatives. I'm considering this for a short-stack design for Saratoga, too.

Thanks, again, Marijn! I stand in awe of your model, modeling skills and research abilities. And your English is excellent. Please post more if you think of anything else.

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First, I would like to think Marijn for helping Steve and for his wonderful model of the Lexington. I knew one of the great people on this Board would help Steve out with the details since some have already done it when building the Trumpeter kits in 1/700 and 1/350. I hope this information gives Steve the comfort level to offer the March 1942 bridge structure of the Lexington. With what he has already done and the information provided Steve will be able to offer a part that is very much more accurate than what is in the Trumpeter box. While maybe not 100% accurate with Steve's research and 3D ability and information from others on the Board it will come real darn close. Looking forward to the as sunk 1942 Lexington superstructure being offered on Shapeways.

Should have my 1942 Saratoga superstructure around Monday. Received a notice from Shapeways that is shipping today.

I agree - I believe it was a permanent structure with windows wrapping around the front of the flag plot.


Agreed that until we know more, this might be best to be left to the modelers interpretation.


In AA Hoelings "The Lexington Goes Down", he tells a story of someone on the flag plot (I think it was a war correspondent) diving behind the splinter mats during some of the action, then roundly getting poked fun at by those near him, as the mats would not have provided any real protection. This leads me to believe that the sides and back of the flag plot had mats hanging off the railings, not splinter shielding.

That's just my opinion - I'm certainly no expert. Just a fan of these beautiful ships.

Here is how I interpreted the forward superstructure in 2005:

_________________
Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery

Consensus! Thanks, Frank, Martin and Marijn!

And another beautiful CV-2 model!

More work done on the design. It's getting closer but much more to do. Hopefully ready by Sunday - other work has been promised.

The May 8th photos seem to indicate that the Flag Plot was widened, too. Look again at those battle photos and follow the path of the sloped tripod supports. See how they appear to pass inside the Flag Plotting Station? Both Marijn and Martin built their models that way. If the supports pass inside Plot, that means that the Plot was widened like Saratoga's was. If I'm wrong and it was only lengthened, the sloped supports should pass outside the Plotting Station.

Thoughts and recommendations, please.

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Thanks for sharing your knowledge and showing your beautiful model Martin! I'm also no expert, also just a fan of the ship, and I happened to build it and therefore researched it's details a bit.
You might be very right here! Before the refit, there was railing here, no splinter shields. And any of the known photo's don't show this element clear enough to be sure, so your interpretation might be the most logical indeed.
I have to say though that the way you represented it on your model looks more like canvas covering of the railing. The splinter mats were thicker elements hanging from the outside of the railing, through which the structure of the railing was not visible anymore.
That said, I'm also not 100% happy with my representation. Next time I think I would sculpt them with Magic Sculp so they would look a bit softer and irregular.



Agreed! It is very hard to see and therefore be sure, but this is my interpretation also. It was also Trumpeter's interpretation, but the more complex faceted front side of your design looks much more accurate than Trumpeter (and my model!).



Yes, I think most modelers would prefer your best guess, over having to do it themselves. people who want to follow a different interpretation can still convert the part themselves. And indeed, the evidence is not very clear, but I think your design looks pretty good to me. Also visually, it looks excellent. Something like this would be very hard to scratchbuild crisply in 1/700 scale.



Agreed! I missed this on my model, probably seeing it as part of the splinter matting surrounding the director's platform's railings, but when checking the photo's again now, it looks like it is there indeed. I wonder what it's function was?
When adding it, note there are triangular supports under this addition, or are they struts (see NARA photo)? I missed this on my model.



Also note these have triangular gussets under them. A photo on p62 of the Squadron book shows this quite well.



Agreed! I didn't explain good indeed… Obviously the venturi is the reason the splinter mats are inclined like that.
Also agreed that this is best added by the modeller to get the proper irregular look.



The squadron book has quite some photo's showing it from different angles. Plans I don't know…

One additional idea: some of the supports under the pilot house's level are not strait beams, but triangular gussets. They seem to be under the front and protruding sides (at least the front port side) of the walkway. See p67 of the squadron book.

The spinter shields around the 1,1' platforms look perfect BTW! Exactly like the close-up on p53 of the Wiper book, and with 8 'ribs' on the side.



In understand! Maybe the first thing would be to include the 1.1' platforms at the rear of the stack as extra parts with the bridge, so they will look identical to the ones in front of he bridge? Another good one would be the radar control room, as this is completely wrong in the kit and is easily replaced.

Thank you for your kind words BTW! On this model, I feel however my weakest point was the research. I have quite some experience with diorama's and feel comfortable with a paintbrush, but it was my first ship model and had to catch up on detailed nautical knowledge. I started my research a bit to late, which prevented me from correcting some detail mistakes in the kit as I found out about them too late… But that's the upside of doing diorama's that tell a story: as long as the story is told successfully, there is no real need to sweat these smaller mistakes too much, and I can still be happy with the model even when I see all the imperfections. And I have to say, for the research, this forum was a fantastic help without which it wouldn't have been possible!

Cheers,

Marijn

Looking good! I may have missed it, but were you planning on doing the 1.1" tubs on the flight deck fore and aft of the bridge and funnel? I'm not sure anyone really knows their precise shape and configuration but if you could figure it out that would really add to the set's appeal.

Someone's been using Moment of Inspiration!

Bob

Thanks so much, Marijn! I really appreciate your analysis and opinions, as well as Martin's and Bob's, too.

I think we are getting closer to an acceptable product, as accurate as can be made from the few references we have.


This is a feature that is very simple to design but unfortunately, because these gussets are so thin, they cannot be printed in 1/700 or 1/350. Arggg. When I first designed the Saratoga island I included these features as open triangular gussets, just like they appear in photos. But the Shapeways analysis software rejected these features as too thin. I continued to thicken them until the software accepted them but they had become so thick they looked cartoon-ish. Instead, I came up with the design you see in these renderings which may help the modeler know where to attach PE gussets instead, if one so chooses to. I hope that as 3D printing technology continues to improve, I'l be able to refit the design with the triangular gussets.


Yes indeed. They will be copies of the forward tubs since no good reference photos or drawings of the aft tubs have yet been found.

Here, below, are some new screenshots showing:
1) open Spotting Top shutters, more closely representing the real Spotting Top as it appears in the May 8th photos
2) some refinement to the Flag Plotting Station Enclosure to better match photos
3) installation of a widened and lengthened Flag Plotting Station similar, but not identical, to Saratoga's. It's forward outline can be seen in views from above (in the final design, this will be merged into the deck and be invisible in the model)

Your thoughts and recommendations, please.

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It looks like there is a cylinder on the rear face of the flag level just above the tripod leg in the above photo. Any idea what it is?

Bob

Bob, do you mean the navigating bridge level? If so, the picture is clearer in Steve Wiper's book, and it is the sunlit, highlighted side of the flag locker.

I omit the flag lockers from all my designs as their structural walls are, unfortunately, too thin to print realistically.

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Hi Steve,

A little off topic. I placed two orders for your products through the Shapeways.com website. Both orders were shipped on October 27 but they are coming from Long Island City, New York and I believe you live just outside of Raleigh, North Carolina which is a little over an hour from me. They are being shipped first class USPS but I would never have chosen this option if I knew they were coming from New York. I would have chosen one of the UPS options as I hate the USPS because they are so slow. Can you please explain why my orders are coming from New York? By the way, the last update on my order is from Flushing, New York. Gosh Darn USPS!!

Best regards,
Jack Pentz

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Hi, Jack and thanks so much for your orders!
Ah, yes, the Shapeways business model can be a little confusing as it is so new. The answer is a bit long, so please bear with me.

Here's how it works: Shapeways is a company with two factories where products are printed, one in New York and the other in Holland. It is likely that your orders will always come from New York.

Designers, like me, are not employees of the company nor are we contractors. We live anywhere, make our CAD designs independently of Shapeways, and upload them to Shapeways in New York via their website. When a customer orders a product through Shapeways, Shapeways prints the product at one or the other of its two factories and ships from there. Once per month, the designer then receives a fee for each product printed.

I have no 3D printer and don't print any products.

Because I am the designer, not the producer, I always say on these threads, "The design for such-and-such product is complete..." and show a Shapeways-made computer-generated rendering rather than, "Here is a photo of the actual completed product for such-and-such..." This can be frustrating for some because, as the designer, not the producer, I don't have a sample product to show the customer. Nor can I answer production-related questions.

I can indeed answer design-related questions since it is my design, not Shapeways' design. I hold the copyright and through an agreement, Shapeways produces it.

Long answer, but I hope it helps you decide how best to order.

Thanks again for your orders! I hope they will delight you!

A fellow TarHeel,

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In that second photo of the side of the stack, where the 20mm AA guns are listed....

I am counting 7 or 8.

The spacing between the 1st and 2nd looks as if there is a gun between them, and at the right end, it looks as if I see another gun-shield for a 20mm Oerlikon.

Or, do we just know that it has/had 6 20mm AA guns in that location???

MB

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Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

Hopefully any uncertainty of the number of guns won't affect the future 3D funnel design since the modeler can choose the number of Oerlikons to place on the platform. But certainly an interesting question that, hopefully, can be resolved quickly by the great researchers here. Thanks for bringing this up, Matt!

In the mean time, if Shapeways printed the 3D tower design today, it would look like this, including additional, matching 1.1" splinter shields for the two positions aft of the funnel:

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