HMS Prince of Wales

[dick]

Slowly working my way though all this...

Hi All,
IIRC I have read in Admiralty camouflage reports of viewings by G. Hall etc in Scapa Flow early in 1942 that the scheme applied to KGV had the MS1 used in the Anson/Howe schemes replaced by 507a, and that specifically in the comments of viewings of Anson the terms MS1, B5 507c and MS4 being used (Maybe Dick /Mr Foeth could confirm this?) in the scheme. .

You are thinking of ADM 212/123 and observations 20th July � 3rd August 1942 in the Scapa Flow area.

I took copies of the project introduction and conclusions papers at the beginning and end of the file but only a handful of the many individual observation reports in between. Going through what I have
I can confirm that:

- KGV darkest tone was 507A (instead of MS1 as on Anson)
- KGV had 507C (comment in relation to it on the stern).
- Anson darkest tone MS1
- Anson scheme described as reminiscent of Hawkins

Next time I�m at TNA maybe I�ll have time to go through each of the many observation reports properly to see if there is anything more there.

At the risk of dabbling in the KGV thread on this forum...

Options for KGV (dark to light) for the period '42-'44 to my knowledge are given as:

507A, B5, B6 and 507C by Roberts and WEM
MS1 , MS2, B5 and 507C by Chesneau
Dick might share the Raven scheme (same as Roberts' ?) please?
.

Generally speaking WEM parrots Raven and Raven does indeed say 507A, B5, B6 and 507C.

Best wishes to all!

[508medway]

One thought re PB10. How/why is it called PB10? Logically it would be a Blue with a 10% reflectance. But why the P in front of it?

The RN used pattern numbers for many of their paints for identification as much in the RN's stores records as anywhere else but the refer to colours such as 507C as pattern 507c not P507C nor AP507C. The AP507A reference seems to be a modern addition.

[dick]

Prussian Blue? (Not sure where I got this idea from though!)

CAFO 2269 of 1944 refers to it as a "Dark Blue".

...and I now see that CAFO 2270 of 1944 refers to it as the "pure deep blue colour" PB10 so maybe P stands for "pure"! More digging required...

[508medway]

How about BS381C #4, Peacock Blue ( now 104)?

Somewhere in my files, I have a photocopy of the 1948 version which lists the reflectance factor for each colour. Now where is it?

If it helps, 5 Oxford Blue was 4.95% and 6 Royal Blue was 4.03%

[dick]

#4 in 1944 was Azure Blue with 4.5 reflectance. #3 was Peacock Blue with 7.7 reflectance

[508medway]

Oops, yes 3 not 4.

[dick]

Table on page 80 of CB 3098 of 1945 confirms the "10" refers to the reflection factor

[508medway]

#4 in 1944 was Azure Blue with 4.5 reflectance. #3 was Peacock Blue with 7.7 reflectance

Now could that come within the acceptable RN's tolerances?

[dick]

With confirmation that the 10 refers to the reflection factor, PB10 can be firmly placed in the post AFO 2106 of May 1943 era and so not relevant to HMS PoW. Rather than fill up this PoW board with discussion of the exact colour of PB10 perhaps you and I should now take that off-line? I have the mixing instructions and I shall e-mail them to you.

[Cag]

Hi All,
Yes Dick the information is enclosed in ADM 212/123 but it is all part of the origional camouflage reference RE/CAM/N/6 I believe which also has some information enclosed in National Archives document HO 217/7 i think which give the MS4 reference. It also gives minor details on Norfolk and Jamaica but confirms the MS1 designation.

Hope this helps, the HO 217/7 is quite a large volume containing RE/CAM/30/1/1, RE/CAM/N/5 and N/6, RE/CAM/9/1/11/10 as well as other camouflage references not only naval.

Best wishes
Cag.

[dick]

I have copies of everything naval in HO 217/7. As you say, quite a lot there. I'll have a rummage and see what I can find...

[elcejay]

Dick, Cag, Michael, thank you.

Your sharing of the archival references on paint is very helpful.

This thread has come such a long way, and so much has been achieved. I was happy to sit on the sidelines and read the discussion for a long time, but as it started to appear that the usual references used by amateurs like me were in question, I joined the discussion in the hope of tying down what is known, what is expert opinion, and what is assumption. (No discredit is intended to any poster, so I hope that I have not come across that way.)

Are Raven's 1929 Munsell values for Admiralty paints also in question? http://www.shipcamouflage.com/3_11.htm

Regards,
Lindsay

[Cag]

Hi All,
No problem Dick, I would be grateful for your opinion, I'm a happy amateur and and rely on yourself, Evert-Jan, Sutho and Michael for the relevant AFO's CAFO's camo references, photographic interpretations and renderings which give the best evaluation of the information available.

I am with you Lindsay, I consider myself an amateur, but your contributions on the subject are most welcome! I began to read this as my uncle served on PoW from January 41 to December 41 and the loss of a lot of the information regarding ships camouflage has always bugged me, and so this forum has helped a great deal. In my research I also became interested in Proff. Dakins work, a few documents being found in the archives in Kew. I am lucky to have a lot of family in Australia, and must admit a great interest in the schemes applied to Royal Australian Navy ships during WW2.

Best wishes,
Cag.

[dick]

Well Cag, I have found what you were referring to in HO 217/7. It is in RE/CAM/N/6 dated 29th August 1942 and it certainly puts the cat amongst the pidgeons!

They were calibrating brightness levels to be applied at their tank at Leamington Spa using real world observations from the July/August 42 observation trails reported in ADM 212/123.
The particular colours tested were:

- On Anson, MS1 and MS4
- On Jamacia, MS1, B5 and MS4
- On Norfolk MS1 and MS4

Not quite what we have been told before...

[508medway]

With confirmation that the 10 refers to the reflection factor, PB10 can be firmly placed in the post AFO 2106 of May 1943 era and so not relevant to HMS PoW. Rather than fill up this PoW board with discussion of the exact colour of PB10 perhaps you and I should now take that off-line? I have the mixing instructions and I shall e-mail them to you.

May be we should ask the moderator to move them to a new topic "Royal Navy Submarine Colour PB10"?

[Cag]

Hi All,
Thanks Dick that it what I have written down so I'm grateful for you to confirm I copied it correctly, IIRC it was a table of some kind and I think there were references to trials of Mountbatten Pink. The 212/123 confirms the switch from MS1 to 507a on KGV a 9% reflectance difference I think, and Duke of York having 13% reflectance (Home Fleet Grey period?).

I agree with 508 Medway that perhaps a dedicated Camouflage paint section subject should be started and keep this strictly PoW related?

Best wishes,
Cag.

[elcejay]

I don't believe that this image has been posted before, though it may be in a broken link in the thread. Captioned as The British battleship HMS Prince of Wales departing Singapore here: http://www.navy.gov.au/hmas-vampire-i

HMS Prince of Wales cropped.jpg

Regards,
Lindsay

[elcejay]

A bit more info and a few images (sorry for the size/quality - other than the first image (which is from the second pdf file) the others are as posted on the sites quoted)...

"Battle Summary No. 14 (Revised) - Loss of H.M. Ships Prince of Wales and Repulse - 10th December 1941". This is the 1955 of a study originally published in 1943 and first revised in 1948, to include information from Japanese sources. http://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/fi ... sed%29.pdf

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/ships/hms/ ... update.pdf (first image below is from pg 3)

images.jpg

From http://www.sstohms.co.uk/firsttimeatsea1.htm :

electra oiling from PoW.gif

From http://www.network54.com/Forum/594514/t ... f+Force+'Z' :

PrinceofWalesinCapeTown_001.jpg

From http://home1.swipnet.se/~w-11578/hms_mauritius.htm (click on text links in web page):

pow_cape.jpg

From http://www.far-eastern-heroes.org.uk/jo ... _wales.htm

Prince_of_wales.jpg

Regards,
Lindsay

(Can't seem to get rid of the doubled image below, sorry)

[elcejay]

One more, this time a piece of art, but possibly an eyewitness recollection and from an RN officer. This is a detail of a painting by Commander Eric Tufnell, who, according to http://www.antiques-atlas.com/antique/c ... /as237a234 was recalled to the Navy for meteorological work in Colombo and left Ceylon in 1942, soon after the Japanese attack.

HMS PoW Tufnell.jpg

The image is from page 40 of http://www.pacificwrecks.com/ships/hms/ ... update.pdf . Perhaps of interest, Cmdr Tufnell has painted a scene of one of the photos posted earlier in the thread of Prince of Wales in Singapore - at top right of this lot of six paintings at auction (beautiful paintings).

http://www.artvalue.fr/auctionresult--t ... 727119.htm

Regards,
Lindsay

[EJFoeth]

Quite easy to see it's a repaint of this photograph