The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 10:48 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 336 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 ... 17  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:41 pm
Posts: 2927
Location: Mocksville, NC
Sean,

I just sent you an email - when I get yours back, I'll include the PENNSY '35 Refit plans, as well. I will make this comment, however - I don't think the ladders at the main deck break (where it drops one level astern) are correct as the '42 Mare Island photos show. I could be wrong, but I don't think they did any structural modifications to the bulkhead when PA was in the Puget Sound yard in the latter '30s prior to Pearl Harbor. Therefore, I'm basing my assumption that the '42 photos showing the bulkhead on the stbd side would have served as valid for her '35 refit - I haven't seen anything to the contrary. I think Chesley used ARIZONA as a basis for his PA plans and didn't research the minute details as a backcheck.

Re. the vent pipe on the port side vent shaft (1935 photo) - I'm guessing that this was also present when Pearl Harbor occurred as this would be a mechanical item more than likely involved with the propulsion systems. This would be easy enough to scratchbuild. I'll make a further comment on this as to what size it may have been (4", 6" dia) after I study it a while.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:28 pm
Posts: 748
Location: Downey, California
Since I had posted the question in this forum, and have now found the answer, I figured I'd share:
The Chesley drawings we've been talking about, showing Pennsy in '35 fit, are found in the Keystone Battlewagon book by Myron J. Smith, Jr.

- Sean F.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:28 pm
Posts: 748
Location: Downey, California
DavidP wrote:
the starboard vent top is 4 sided not 5 sided as per your drawing. the red circled picture that steve posted does not show the angled cut that would create the 5th side. I measured the flat top of the vent in Photo 1106-42 http://navsource.org/archives/01/038/013803g.jpg & all 4 sides are parallel to each other with 2 sides 1 dimension & the other 2 are another dimension. what makes you think all 4 sides are hinged when maybe only the forward & closes side(http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013836.jpg) is because I don't see any hinges on the port vent?
http://navsource.org/archives/01/038/013865d.jpg
http://navsource.org/archives/01/038/013860m.jpg


I'm pretty sure the starboard side vent does have a 5-sided cap... in the aforementioned http://navsource.org/archives/01/038/013803g.jpg it looks like the forward edge of the vent cap is shorter than the aft edge; the camera angle and sun glare hit just right to make the beveled edge a bit obscure. This shot, while still leaving much to be desired, makes it a bit more obvious:
http://navsource.org/archives/01/038/013803i.jpg
The forward edge of the cap overhang is not long enough to form a uniform, completely rectangular perimeter around the vent stalk - it's nipped off at the inside corner.

- Sean F.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:41 pm
Posts: 2927
Location: Mocksville, NC
Sean_F wrote:
Quote:

I'm pretty sure the starboard side vent does have a 5-sided cap... in the aforementioned http://navsource.org/archives/01/038/013803g.jpg it looks like the forward edge of the vent cap is shorter than the aft edge; the camera angle and sun glare hit just right to make the beveled edge a bit obscure. This shot, while still leaving much to be desired, makes it a bit more obvious:
http://navsource.org/archives/01/038/013803i.jpg
The forward edge of the cap overhang is not long enough to form a uniform, completely rectangular perimeter around the vent stalk - it's nipped off at the inside corner.


On this issue (vent cap shape, etc.) I have to agree with Sean - in addition, photo 1090-42 shows the port vent and it has a 5 sided cap. I don't think that they would have differed in shape & size. Once I figure out how to convert the original .tiff file photo to a .jpg I'll post it. In addition, the Chesley print does show the 5 sided vent caps on both sides of Turret 3.

David P does point out a detail about the air deflector plates (below the vent cap) and whether or not all 4 sides are hinged. After closer inspection of the available photos, I'm inclined to believe he's correct - the forward and outboard plates ARE hinged while the after and inboard plates are stationary. I was able to pick this up from photos 1090-42 and 1027-42 which, when zoomed into, show the bead of welding on the inner plate with the vent shaft.

I will revisit my vent drawings to correct this aspect if needed as well as adding the round vent pipe on the port side vent shaft that should actually be part of the vent as it's only inches from the outboard side of the vent shaft.

Thanks to both of you for aiding in making these drawings as correct as possible.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:15 am 
Offline
Model Monkey
Model Monkey

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 3952
Location: USA
Great discussion!

BB62vet wrote:
....Once I figure out how to convert the original .tiff file photo to a .jpg I'll post it....

Hank

Open the *.tif in Microsoft "Paint" or "Paint.net", reduce it in size (because the hi-res photo is a whopper) and save it as an *.jpg.

Port side vent cap. I need to remove the fillet on the chamfered corner of the design.


Attachments:
Unititled-293.small.jpg
Unititled-293.small.jpg [ 195.71 KiB | Viewed 3653 times ]

_________________
Have fun, Monkey around.™

-Steve L.

Complete catalog: - https://www.model-monkey.com/
Follow Model Monkey® on Facebook: - https://www.facebook.com/modelmonkeybookandhobby
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:56 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:41 pm
Posts: 2927
Location: Mocksville, NC
Steve,

Thanks for the conversion info - hadn't thought of using "Paint". And thanks for posting that photo. As I mentioned in my email, I'll revised the drawing to include the vent pipe on the Port Vent Shaft as I described to you.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:07 am 
Offline
Model Monkey
Model Monkey

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 3952
Location: USA
Thanks, Hank!

Here's the revised design, except the pipe.


Attachments:
1-200 Pennsylvania Vents.d.png
1-200 Pennsylvania Vents.d.png [ 129.58 KiB | Viewed 3646 times ]
1-200 Pennsylvania Vents.e.png
1-200 Pennsylvania Vents.e.png [ 133.01 KiB | Viewed 3646 times ]

_________________
Have fun, Monkey around.™

-Steve L.

Complete catalog: - https://www.model-monkey.com/
Follow Model Monkey® on Facebook: - https://www.facebook.com/modelmonkeybookandhobby
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:41 pm
Posts: 2927
Location: Mocksville, NC
Steve,

David P wrote:
Quote:
that "ledge" or seam cover that partially wraps around the bent joint of the starboard vent trunk, make it wider as there is an electrical or air driven hand tool sitting there in the red circled picture
. See my comments below about altering the width of that flanged joint.

It is NOT an elec. or air tool, it is an alarm - see blowup below:
Attachment:
Stbd Vent with Horn.JPG
Stbd Vent with Horn.JPG [ 34.07 KiB | Viewed 5705 times ]

Remember, this is 1940's era and many mechanical/pneumatic items were utilized in conjunction with newer electrical switches and activators to produce things such as a powered air alarm. This alarm is also mounted on the outside of the port vent shaft and a similar one is mounted below an elec. panel box on the stbd side of the main deck break bulkhead. I've shown this on my vent drawing in red.

As for the vent shaft lip that DavidP describes, it could be up to 2 1/2w x 1" deep. It's a 90 deg. angled lip connection and probably has a neoprene seal inside.

Not to get into a pissing contest over who has more or what experience as a draftsman, I have been a facilities board/CAD draftsman/designer for 46+ years and currently work in piping, HVAC, and P&ID CAD drawings in a project engineering group designing a new plasma fractionation facility at our N.C. location. I'm quite familiar with how HVAC ductwork is engineered/designed/drafted and these items in a shipyard would be pretty std. items for the time. Things today, however, are done quite differently as a matter of info. I'm not sure whether or not these are intake or exhaust vents, but I'm leaning towards exhaust due to the hinged deflector panels. The BoGP for ARIZONA only calls hers "vents" with no further description.

Hope this helps,

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:28 pm
Posts: 748
Location: Downey, California
BB62vet wrote:
Steve,

David P wrote:
Quote:
that "ledge" or seam cover that partially wraps around the bent joint of the starboard vent trunk, make it wider as there is an electrical or air driven hand tool sitting there in the red circled picture
. See my comments below about altering the width of that flanged joint.

It is NOT an elec. or air tool, it is an alarm - see blowup below:
Attachment:
Stbd Vent with Horn.JPG

Remember, this is 1940's era and many mechanical/pneumatic items were utilized in conjunction with newer electrical switches and activators to produce things such as a powered air alarm. This alarm is also mounted on the outside of the port vent shaft and a similar one is mounted below an elec. panel box on the stbd side of the main deck break bulkhead. I've shown this on my vent drawing in red.

As for the vent shaft lip that DavidP describes, it could be up to 2 1/2w x 1" deep. It's a 90 deg. angled lip connection and probably has a neoprene seal inside.

Not to get into a pissing contest over who has more or what experience as a draftsman, I have been a facilities board/CAD draftsman/designer for 46+ years and currently work in piping, HVAC, and P&ID CAD drawings in a project engineering group designing a new plasma fractionation facility at our N.C. location. I'm quite familiar with how HVAC ductwork is engineered/designed/drafted and these items in a shipyard would be pretty std. items for the time. Things today, however, are done quite differently as a matter of info. I'm not sure whether or not these are intake or exhaust vents, but I'm leaning towards exhaust due to the hinged deflector panels. The BoGP for ARIZONA only calls hers "vents" with no further description.

Hope this helps,

Hank


While we're looking at this great blow-up of the starboard vent, note the folded-down forward deflector flange - definitely has a diagonal clipped edge. I'd lay the probability at 99% that the vent cap follows suit.

- Sean F.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:41 pm
Posts: 2927
Location: Mocksville, NC
OK, here is an update version of the 1935 Vents drawing (1:200 scale) including the 6" dia. vent pipe outboard of the Port Side Vent Shaft.
Attachment:
BB-38 Main Deck Vents - small.jpg
BB-38 Main Deck Vents - small.jpg [ 122.83 KiB | Viewed 5612 times ]

The addition of the vent pipe simply adds a bit of detail - it was added in the 1935 refit.

Hope this helps,

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:15 am
Posts: 5003
An interesting vent, it almost looks as if all the skirting plate extensions can be folded down for some reason, though only one is in that position in the photo. Wonder why they would do that?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:22 pm 
Offline
Model Monkey
Model Monkey

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 3952
Location: USA
Great discussion and drawings. Here's the final design.

In 1/200 scale, they are quite big, therefore, they are unfortunately, expensive.

Attachment:
1-200 Pennsylvania Vents.aa.jpg
1-200 Pennsylvania Vents.aa.jpg [ 27.5 KiB | Viewed 5575 times ]


Attachments:
1-200 Pennsylvania Vents.f.png
1-200 Pennsylvania Vents.f.png [ 116.2 KiB | Viewed 5575 times ]
1-200 Pennsylvania Vents.g.png
1-200 Pennsylvania Vents.g.png [ 86.96 KiB | Viewed 5575 times ]
1-200 Pennsylvania Vents.h.png
1-200 Pennsylvania Vents.h.png [ 174.34 KiB | Viewed 5575 times ]
1-200 Pennsylvania Vents.i.png
1-200 Pennsylvania Vents.i.png [ 80.79 KiB | Viewed 5575 times ]

_________________
Have fun, Monkey around.™

-Steve L.

Complete catalog: - https://www.model-monkey.com/
Follow Model Monkey® on Facebook: - https://www.facebook.com/modelmonkeybookandhobby
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:15 am
Posts: 5003
WAG... Intake vents with the upper mid plates, to help keep spray etc out, exhaust vent might not need this, depending on location?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:51 am
Posts: 382
Location: S.C.
I ordered a set of these vents in 1/350 as soon as Steve posted them on his shapeways store. Got them in the mail Saturday morn and must say that was the fastest shapeways delivery to date! 5 days.
These look fantastic and the rough surface is not as prevalent on these as it is on some of the other items and they should clean up very nice with a touch of a sanding stick. The angled vent caps look spot on and so too is the little electrical conduit? running up the side on one vent. From what I see very little "extra detail" would be needed..

Overall impression?... fantastic!
thank you much Hank and Steve and all others who contributed.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:28 pm
Posts: 748
Location: Downey, California
I know they weren't aboard on Dec. 7 '41, but did Pennsylvania have 3 or 4 Kingfishers assigned? That is, I'd expect 2-O-7, 2-O-8, and 2-O-9 from VO-2, but was there also a fourth for Admiral Kimmel's exclusive use, and if so, does anyone know how it was marked in late '41? (I don't expect the traditional "Blue Goose" scheme was in effect at that time... or was it?)

I looked over the 2nd Quarter 1941 fleet organization letter on Tracy's site:
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Misc/O ... ation.html
I see a mention of "1 VOS Plane - Flag Unit" under Pennsylvania and California near the top, before the letter gets into the BatDivs, so I'd guess the answer would be 4 total on these two battleships at that time and 3 on all the others - but as I recall, after that letter was issued they equipped with new Kingfishers, switched Pennsylvania from BatDiv 1 to 2, and changed aircraft color schemes twice, So... were they still embarking an extra, specially-marked Admiral's plane by the time of the Pearl Harbor attack? And was California still hauling one also, since that would be two fleet flagships in the same BatDiv once Pennsylvania transferred?

- Sean F.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: USS Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:50 pm 
I have a question regarding the USS Pennsylvania (just bought Dragon models USS Pennsylvania). How did they get up to the top floor on the main superstructure. Where the three support beams hollow? On the dragon model there are two 50 cal MG high up on the main superstructure, how did they get the amo up there?


Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:21 am 
aha, thanks for the help☺


Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:40 pm
Posts: 539
I have a pic taken off the internet of the Arizona's wreckage that is still being kept near Pearl Harbor. A section of the rear main (centerline) leg has rungs inside that a person could climb that I assume would go all the way to the top most level. I seem to recall a few years ago when they dredged up a section of Oklahoma's mast, it also contained similar rungs. Just mentioning this in case anyone was curious.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:41 pm
Posts: 2927
Location: Mocksville, NC
Yesterday, Mark Krumrey emailed me with a "discovery" he had made while working on his AZ to PA Conversion - a small shed or deckhouse that was added to PENNSYLVANIA sometime after her '30s refit. It appears in quite a few photos up to 1941 but not after her Mare Island 1942 refit. This small raised shed appears in one of the following photos to be supported by two round poles as it probably extends over the lower main deck at the break. I've circled in red the following three photos to show where this item is located. It is not shown on any current renderings/plans/drawings, etc. that I've found. So, WHAT IS IT? :huh:
Attachment:
BB38 Port Side.jpg
BB38 Port Side.jpg [ 179.04 KiB | Viewed 5728 times ]

Attachment:
Cropped Amidships.jpg
Cropped Amidships.jpg [ 48.89 KiB | Viewed 5728 times ]

Attachment:
1935 Main Mast_1.jpg
1935 Main Mast_1.jpg [ 147.88 KiB | Viewed 5728 times ]

I have a possible thought on what this is based on a similar type of deckhouse that was temporarily installed on DD566 during our 1966-67 Westpac Cruise for a 3 week period by the CIA. While that organization wasn't even thought of in the 1930's, radio espionage (tracking) was handled thru the U.S.N. Communications Dept. and while a 'secret' comm. shed may have been thought of back then, who can say? It could also have been a small BBQ Smoke shack installed by the Commissary CPO if he had been from North Carolina :deadhorse: :joker: Nothin' says lovin' like a pig smokin' in the oven!! :yeah:

If anyone has any ideas, info, credible evidence - please share.

Thanks, Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:48 pm
Posts: 1059
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
There's an opening in the back.....a movie projection booth similar to Arizona's, just up higher?

Bob


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 336 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 ... 17  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 60 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group