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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:25 pm 
I find your conclusions exciting. I am curious, how did you conclude the horiz surfaces were 20-B?!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:46 am 
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Gary -

I wonder a bit about the blast bags, particularly on turret 1 (and symmetrically perhaps on turret 4). In the shot of her mangled foredeck:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013632.jpg

Turret #2 clearly has very light bags; in these firefighting shots, I agree on them being quite white:
http://navsource.org/archives/01/036/013619.jpg
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013640.jpg

But back to the first photo and turret 1: yes, there was a fire going, but judging by the uniformity of paint tone on turrets 1 and 2 I'd suspect the flames weren't actually lapping turret 1's face (granted, I haven't a clue what's going on at the muzzle of turret 1's leftmost barrel), and the bags don't look burnt, so if they started as white then they changed color from the smoke. But their dark color seems to be entirely uniform, leaving me to wonder if they really soaked up the smoke so evenly or if they were already darker before the attack started. Though uncommon, it's not unheard-of for USN ships to have different-colored bags mounted at the same time.

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:45 pm 
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My bet is that Turret 1's bloomers were dyed but Turret 2's were still in the pre-war Standard Navy Gray (#18, not #5, since it's a dye, but formulated to match). Most likely since they were harder to reach. Keep in mind that the Navy was still transitioning paints. SHIPS-2 Revision 1 ordered the dying of canvas to match deck blue, but it didn't reach the fleet until October of 1941, and the earliest I have for BuShips issuing an official formula to the shipyards is AFTER the attack (I don't have that doc posted yet, but it's dated December 19, 1941).

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:39 am 
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This image suggest that the bloomers on the #4 turret were white. It appears that these bloomers were removed before her sortie. The ones on #1 were not white.

Image


Last edited by Jeff Sharp on Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:49 am 
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I too, like Tracy do not know for sure but from what I've seen over the years I have an opinion that the decks were painted.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:11 pm 
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It appears I was mistaken about the bloomers on #4 turret being removed before her sortie. Here they are during her sortie. They are definitely white.

Image


Last edited by Jeff Sharp on Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:00 am 
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Well spotted, Jeff. Turrets 2-4 definitely white,

The only thing now is to guess how dark they are on turret 1. They seem to almost blend in with the paint of the turret face; they look much darker than the painted deck. 5-D? Maybe even black?

Here's a shot of Arizona and Nevada from Jan. '41, at Puget Sound Navy Yard, where dark bags are visible on both. Not Dec. 7, and they're both in pre-war Standard Gray (or various stages or old paint/repainting as the case may be), but the point is that dark bags existed. Interestingly, NV's aft two turrets seem too dark for the time (primered?), but I think I see the white top on turret 4.

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:25 pm 
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Here is a film showing Oklahoma wearing MS-1 camo 1941. Go to the last clip dated March 13, 1942. Enjoy.
http://www.gettyimages.com/videos/battl ... st#license


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:16 am 
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I managed to isolate the direct URL - http://www.gettyimages.com/license/594655237

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:39 pm 
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Thanks Tracy!
Couple of observations:
Her decks definitely look painted.
Notice that large black band at the top of the stack.
Also, did you see those dark bands on the deck around turret 1 and 3 of that cruiser? That's a look I have not seen before.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:50 pm 
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I did, but hadn't got around to looking at them in depth (Busy day)

Here's a screen capture for ease of discussion:

Attachment:
CL.jpg
CL.jpg [ 43.23 KiB | Viewed 7018 times ]


Note that there are regular "spots" on the rings. Current theory is that they're applied in some manner and those are some/the attachment points. Never seen it before, on any ship.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:42 pm 
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Tracy, I'm not sure how you are capturing a screen shot of the film but can you post one showing both BB's here?
Maybe we should post the "ringed wonder" pic over on the Brooklyn Class CASF page to continue that discussion.
Thanks


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:35 pm 
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I'll try and repost the pic tonight in the apropos thread. Screen shot was just done with the Windows snipping tool, which been around since Windows 7 and is quite handy but not often known.

Attachment:
BBs.JPG
BBs.JPG [ 32.95 KiB | Viewed 7256 times ]


Attachment:
BB.JPG
BB.JPG [ 30.8 KiB | Viewed 7256 times ]


Fair Use statement, just in case Getty has some bored lawyers: These screen captures are exceprts from Getty Image's copy of Wazee Archival clip #594655237 and are posted for the purpose of discussion and education.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:28 pm 
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Jeff Sharp wrote:
Thanks Tracy!
Couple of observations:
Her decks definitely look painted.
Notice that large black band at the top of the stack.
Also, did you see those dark bands on the deck around turret 1 and 3 of that cruiser? That's a look I have not seen before.


I'm not so sure about painted; the aft deck certainly looks dark, but it's also definitely wet. Note the reflections of the bright white sailor uniforms. Teak gets a lot darker when wet.

Also, I think that's probably the Nevada ahead of her in line at the very beginning of that film clip.

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:58 pm 
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Great video guys. I still think and really believe some of those decks were painted, at least on some of the BB's. Tennessee, Oklahoma and especially the Nevada, but unfortunately all we will ever be able to do is speculate. We all know the Navy was experimenting with different types of paint and which ones would work best in the pacific. I also know that the decks of these battlewagons were not ordered to be painted yet, but I wonder if they were and there's just no written proof. If there was proof, then it went down with those ships or they have been lost with time. I find this topic, the turret top colors and the Arizona's very interesting. I wish like many, it would be as simple as asking an old Navy sailor these questions, but most of them have passed and the ones who are alive just don't remember. I know on a personal level, life in the Navy becomes repetitive. You do the same thing over and over and you honestly just don't pay attention to painting that ship or doing the bright work anymore. It just becomes second nature.

Something I've thought about concerning the Nevada. There were work barges tide up along side her on December 7th. Are there any records as to what those barges were tending to? Maybe her decks were literally just painted on the 5th or 6th and the documentation didn't get back to the proper authorities confirming the decks had been completed. Also, 20 B was not suppose to be in fleet wide use yet, could the decks have been painted a deck gray, like they used on the decks of destroyers. just a thought.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:36 am 
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Deck logs might state what specific barges came along side, if they survived. There are records out there for details that haven't been plumbed yet that might also speak to decks. For the Arizona Question, I've gone through at least (in order of memory/that I hit):
Puget Sound Navy Yard (overhauls)
Mare Island Navy Yard (Paint Manufacture)
Pearl Harbor Navy Yard
CINCPAC
CINCLANT
ComBatFor
ComBatBatFor
ComCruBatFor
BuShips
Still need to go through COM14 (Commander of the 14th Naval District) and many others.

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"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:46 am 
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On Nevada's starboard side was YD-240 which was off loading ammo and on the port side was the garbage lighter YG-17. I'm assuming she was there for the trash?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:53 pm 
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SeanF wrote:
Jeff Sharp wrote:
Thanks Tracy!
Couple of observations:
Her decks definitely look painted.
Notice that large black band at the top of the stack.
Also, did you see those dark bands on the deck around turret 1 and 3 of that cruiser? That's a look I have not seen before.


I'm not so sure about painted; the aft deck certainly looks dark, but it's also definitely wet. Note the reflections of the bright white sailor uniforms. Teak gets a lot darker when wet.

Also, I think that's probably the Nevada ahead of her in line at the very beginning of that film clip.

- Sean F.


Hi Sean, I see what you mean about the reflection on the deck. Also, I agree that is Nevada in front of her.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:05 pm 
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I'm in the process of converting a 1/700 USS Arizona hull to a USS Oklahoma hull for a diorama of the tragedy alongside the Maryland. Trying to figure out the position of the screws (2 instead of 4 of course) and am not quite finding what I need. Although technically I'm only using one screw (starboard, the one partly exposed).

As I see it my options are either to put the single starboard screw somewhere halfway between the positions of the Arizona's two, or to simply mount it to the existing outer position. I'm inclined to believe the former.

I defer to your wisdom; thanks!

*scale edited!*


Last edited by JollyRoger61 on Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:29 am 
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DavidP wrote:
JollyRoger61, 1/72 or 1/720 scale. look at the middle drawing leftside to see the props location. http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... 70-5_a.jpg


Whoops, my bad...I'm used to typing 72 for aircraft....
yes, I meant 700....


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