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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:32 pm 
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Brett,

A slightly better quality version of your photo is in the AWM collection (P02497.039) with location and date given as Brisbane River, Qld. c. 1942. It might be worth checking if they have evidence for this.
(The movements of the donor M Williams for example.)

Best wishes.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:23 pm 
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Thank you very much Dick, a very hard photo to find, as I mentioned earlier I could not pinpoint it anywhere except where you directed.
As usual tucked away in the massive AWM collection, could not find it in any searches other than a search on the donors name.
If you see my post on WNSF, It was posted before your reply here.
As you pointed out, with so many caption errors, further indepth research would be required to prove the date, I expect you would agree that it is a unique shot. best regards.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:34 pm 
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Brett,

I must agree that the shape does look like a lady's rear end transitioning to a leg to a foot (now that you've high-lighted it), but that what the picture shows and what the drawing shows are more than a little different. (For some reason I was thinking DCT was some sort of depth charge thrower. Maybe because I build more destroyers than cruisers.)

I'm going to tackle the 1/700 Combrig Australia in this camo scheme when it gets to the top of my to do list. All this discussion is most useful (and I'm taking notes).

Dave


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:17 pm 
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Good on ya Dav, I,d like to see it when you`ve completed it.
As for the original shot, I now have a much clear crisper image enhanced with photoshop, If you would like a copy send a message to my inbox with your email and I`ll flick it onto you.

I have made an enquiry to AWM to try and narrow the date of the photo, but I don`t expect to much, if it is in fact 42 the scheme could have been modified anytime before August, as DrPH commented, the ship need not be in drydock/refit to receive paint touch-ups.
Would be very interesting to know if there were any alterations made to the starboard pattern, unless another photo for this approx. time period appears we will never know.

Have also picked up a port and starboard overhead of the Oz when dressed in 2 tone, deck colours can be most difficult to ascertain.
At this time the deck looks to be a light grey, but my guess is bare teak, these would be the only O/H shots I have seen for this time period. cheers


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:11 am 
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Brett:

Would you be willing to post the overhead pictures of HMAS Australia you mentioned? I've also been looking for overhead shots of Australia from early in the war without success, and would be very interested in what they show with regard to the configuration of the bridge, deckhouses, and searchlight platforms.

Many thanks for considering this request.

Mike E.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:24 pm 
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Mike,
Attached shots for the 18 month time period Jan 41 to mid 42, not the best for detail unfortunately, and will not serve your purpose, but do give an idea of deck colour.
They are AWM shots, I have cropped and enlarged them from the small shots open to public domain on the website.
Better resolution photos would be available from AWM if you are willing to pay their fees.

I believe they were taken at different times, the port shot would be the latter as the masts appear a light colour which would possibly indicate compliance with AFO directive issued mid 41, Australian cruisers mast heads to be painted sky blue.

A3 shot is cropped from a photo with USS Selfridge in company dated 42, not sure if this photo is in the archive.
Once again not the best, if date is correct this may be latter half of 42 after receiving her new colour of Chicago Blue.
Exposure and light plays tricks, so horizontal surfaces appear lighter than what they really were, glare has masked the 507A colour of the centre funnel in starboard photo. As you mentioned O/H photos of Australia for this time period are rare.


Attachments:
a1.jpg
a1.jpg [ 143.78 KiB | Viewed 2844 times ]
a2.jpg
a2.jpg [ 172.7 KiB | Viewed 2844 times ]
a3.jpg
a3.jpg [ 196.75 KiB | Viewed 2844 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:07 am 
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Brett Morrow wrote:
Good on ya Dav, I,d like to see it when you`ve completed it.
As for the original shot, I now have a much clear crisper image enhanced with photoshop, If you would like a copy send a message to my inbox with your email and I`ll flick it onto you.

I have made an enquiry to AWM to try and narrow the date of the photo, but I don`t expect to much, if it is in fact 42 the scheme could have been modified anytime before August, as DrPH commented, the ship need not be in drydock/refit to receive paint touch-ups.
Would be very interesting to know if there were any alterations made to the starboard pattern, unless another photo for this approx. time period appears we will never know.

Have also picked up a port and starboard overhead of the Oz when dressed in 2 tone, deck colours can be most difficult to ascertain.
At this time the deck looks to be a light grey, but my guess is bare teak, these would be the only O/H shots I have seen for this time period. cheers


The RN issued instructions in 1940 that decks were to be of a dark colour of which the main ingredient was Japan Black. The archives have these comments for Australia in 1943.


Attachments:
Deck coverings 1943 inc HMAS Australia.jpg
Deck coverings 1943 inc HMAS Australia.jpg [ 113.91 KiB | Viewed 2800 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:57 am 
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Hi all, there is also this o/h photo of Australia at AWM. Although the deck appears very light (and so do the upper surfaces of her Walrus, that were Extra Dard Slate Grey and Dark Slate Grey, so quite dark actually), there is less glare at the aft part of the deck. There is no exact date given by AWM but she carried this scheme (with Sky blue foremast) at Guadalcanal.

What I found interesting at the A3 photo posted by Brett earlier is the quite well seen dark colour on top of the B turret (although in direct sunlight). This cannot be seen on the photo below, but do you think it may mean turret tops were painted another colour (deck colour?) than the sides/front of the turret (as an be seen on some of the photos of Australia in 2-colour camouflage)?


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HMAS Australia 1942-43 with HMAS Hobart AWM 300272.JPG
HMAS Australia 1942-43 with HMAS Hobart AWM 300272.JPG [ 162.21 KiB | Viewed 2778 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:51 pm 
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Vladi,
Just to prove a point on visual perception and variables, on the day your shot was taken the circling aircraft took 3 photos.
There can be no argument as the ships boat is in the exact same position, in the broadside pic Hobart was underway and moved out of shot.
The port quarter o/h excellently demonstates how angle, exposure, glare, background and followup photo manipulation can all alter an image, the upper forward mast presents in a dark colour, when we know that it is in fact a light colour, undoubtedly sky blue.


Attachments:
42.jpg
42.jpg [ 139.87 KiB | Viewed 2735 times ]
42  p1.jpg
42 p1.jpg [ 195.85 KiB | Viewed 2735 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:11 pm 
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Thanks Brett for posting those photos. Very interesting and helpful.

Mike E.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:21 pm 
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Brett,

Going back to the question of a date for the photo you posted on 4th Jan, in the better quality version at the AWM site the Oerlikon bin on the roof of B turret and the shields of two Oerlikons within it can clearly be seen. I think that this therefore dates the photo into the period March – July 1942 (given that there are accurately dated photos and film of Feb 42 showing her in the two-tone paint scheme and with no Oerlikon bin, and of August 42 showing her with the bin and also then in one paint colour overall).

(I thought someone had posted a detailed list of the A&As to Australia at various times but cannot find it now?)

It would be interesting to find a photo of the starboard side during that timeframe to see if the design was altered that side too.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:14 pm 
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Dick, I concur.
The reference to AA fit you mention may be the ROP list shown under Australia/Warramunga thread in main forum section, which could point to B turret tub/oerlikon addition early June?
If correct, given the amount of weathering evident on the 507A section(which has also been extended downward) I would venture to pinpoint the pattern repaint around March/April, and the photo date late June/early July, the ship log would note Brisbane port visits around this time. I would also speculate that the A and B turret touch-ups( given their crisp appearance) were applied later than the midship alteration, same time as A/A mods.
Safe to say, the shot is the very last photo of Oz in 2 tone, before losing it all together.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:20 am 
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The AWM reply to my enquiry on a timeframe for the photo in question is, in its condensed form,
Difficult to find Brisbane port visits, but ship was in Moreton bay area, in May 1942, also 4th June before proceeding to Sydney for refit (RDF) mentioned.
Proceeded from Sydney 21st, back in Moreton bay 22nd June.
For any non Aust. inquisitors, Brisbane river empties into Moreton bay.


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 Post subject: HMAS Canberra Aug 1942
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:30 am 
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Hi all, it seems the camo-dating discussion is over, I did not want to interfere with another topic till then ;)

I finally started building HMAS Canberra as she appeared just before her final battle and loss at Savo Island on August 8th, 1942, based on the 1/700 Kombrig resin kit. The kit indeed has issues, some of them already mentioned in this thread or in other places, and it is not particularly well detailed. Forgive me if my questions are too basic, I orientate quite well in IJN and USN but I´m no specialist in RN/RAN. Can you please help me to sort out the following details?

    Bridge equipment - there is this well-known photo showing HMAS Australia´s open bridge details during wartime, but her bridge was already quite different at that time from Canberra´s unmodified bridge. Would anybody have some photos or drawings showing inner details of the original style Kent-class or similar cruiser bridge?

    The Type 271 radar was housed in a typical lantern, that had either octagonal or circular shape. Unfortunately, neither of the few photos I know of showing Canberra´s final fit (e.g. leaving Wellington on July 22, off Tulagi on Aug 7) showing 271 radar is clear enough to be able to be sure enough to tell which type it was in her case. Would anybody know which type was more likely installed in early 1942? AWM has a photo of Australia from Feb 1943 with a circular lantern, but Australia´s lantern was only installed after her involvement in the Guadalcanal campaign in early 1943 and was of different type (Type 273).

    She also carried a Type A290 radar on her foremast. To depict this radar I would need more details that I was unable to find yet, especially dimensions and ideally clear photos or even a drawing of the set. The best I´ve seen so far is this photo of HMAS Warramunga with A290 on her foremast but anything better would be highly welcome.

Thank you!

(BTW I started a discussion regarding Canberra´s Walrus colours at the Britmodeller forum , there are some good points there, too, for those interested)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:11 am 
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Vladi,
Not much info on the A290, except I had read somewhere it`s performance was not very accurate.
Can not tell you its dimensions, or number of elements, but you can see from attachments that it had a small crossarm uppermost on the vertical shaft, and also another one lower. Second shot shows larger crossarm at the centerpoint which is hidden in other pics, but seems to lack the smaller crossarms, perhaps a slightly different version antenna, difficult to tell.
First shot is Arunta, so maybe first variant, second is Warramunga.

From the attachment of the lantern, judging by reflections from the panels, it could very well be octagonal.


Attachments:
A290.jpg
A290.jpg [ 63.55 KiB | Viewed 3704 times ]
A290  p1.jpg
A290 p1.jpg [ 95.17 KiB | Viewed 3704 times ]
271.jpg
271.jpg [ 22.65 KiB | Viewed 3704 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:13 am 
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Hello Brett, thanks a lot for your help! The A290 was probably really not much good, otherwise it would have been more widespread and we´d have better documentation of it :)

Regarding 271 - actually I had a similar feeling from the off-Wellington photo (crop below), if you compare the reflections on the lantern with the one on the rounded part of the upper bridge "wings" (blue arrow - this is also incorrect in the Kombrig kit), the lantern really may be octagonal. I´d also say that manufacturing rounded perspex windows was a bit more advanced than using flat windows into an octagonal lantern, but that is only my guess.
Attachment:
271 Vladi.JPG
271 Vladi.JPG [ 29.32 KiB | Viewed 3691 times ]


Let us see if someone has anything to tell about the open bridge equipment, it would be nice to have something "real" in there. Thanks!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:38 am 
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I´ve been once again trying hard to find more about the Type A290 air-warning radar but with no success so far. There was a British Type 290 set but that seems to be quite different (although there is not much more info around). Can anyone remember seeing an A290 aerial (like on the upper 2 photos in Brett´s post above) on a Royal Navy (British) ship? Or was it specific to RAN?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:39 am 
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While this is just a wild guess, the antenna does resemble the Canadian SW1C radar used on Canadian escorts early in the war. Perhaps it's an Australian derivative or parallel development?

Cheers,

Sean

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:50 pm 
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Hello Sean,
thanks for your feedback, that´s an interesting point! I found a few photos of escorts equipped with SW1C radar, e.g.

http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/canada/ww2/flower/weyburn1.jpg
http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/canada/ww2/flower/spikenard1.jpg

and you are right the aerial looks similar. On closer inspection there are some optical differences though (without being able to check their actual dimensions and tech specs), the SW1C aerial is even simpler than A290, the latter had that large object at the shorter end of the horizontal arm and had a vertical part of the aerial (crossarms mentioned by Brett), too, which I cannot see at SW1C. Also there is no tubular object below the SW1C aerial that most probably housed part of the A290 equipment (waveguides between the aerial and the electronics had to be as short as possible at that time, this was also the reason why 271 had the electronics in the housing immediately below the typical lantern). I think there might have been some coincidence between SW1C and A290 or the similarity comes just from the fact that a single-Yagi antenna system in the metric range simply has to look similar to another of its kind.

Anyway, thanks for your help!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:38 pm 
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The 290 had a short service life 1941/42, with all the development in radar tech going on at that time, it seems to have been a trial unit before progression to the 291.
I have not seen any reference to it being fitted to RN units, If I am wrong, I am open to correction.

As the letter A would imply, that was the first variant, which may explain why the antenna on Warramunga does not show upper and lower cross elements on the vertical, I believe the lower cylindrical enclosure contained the mechanism to rotate the antenna, via handwheel control in the radar room.

The only ships which show fitting of this aerial were, Arunta, Warrumunga, Canberra and Stuart, but could be more. There is the flimsiest of evidence that Adelaide may also have carried a 290 for a very short time, but I have not seen any photos to support my theory.
The Hi res shot of Australia dated 31.8.42 shows something similar to a 290 canister at the masthead, but that maybe wishful perception and just a white blob, including a small blob where the tailfin would be on the horizontal, the blobs are dotted throughout the image, very coincidental? you be the judge.

If you can find any clear images, it will happen by accident, I have also made many futile attempts to find.


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