Calling all USN 1,500 tonner-class DD fans

[Rick E Davis]

I found an image of a sister from July 1942 with basically the same configuration with another 20-mm in that location. In February 1942 they kind of rationed 20-mm guns and it was "typical" for destroyers to only have four. But, that gun could be a leftover 50-cal MG or a 20-mm gun.

[Dick J]

DD's 376, 378 and 379 all had similar configs. By August, there were 20MM in all 7 locations.

DD-376: https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collec ... 97853.html
DD-378: https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collec ... 32237.html
DD-379 (background): https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collec ... 33052.html

[MatthewB]

What is the deal with the gun shelters on the forward 5"/38s on the Mahan-class?

It looks like the port-side has a bump on it, while the Starboard-side is flat.

If that correct?

Because the Midship Models shelters for the forward guns look to be flat on both sides.

The plans for the Mk. 21 Gun Mounts with the Shelters have a strange asymmetry as well.

MB

[Steve]

I'm at the stage of putting together an after deckhouse with twin 40mm mounts for the 700 scale Midship kit of the USS Stack. I will need to modify the kit part(s) to accommodate the two twin mounts once the after pair of torpedo tubes are deleted. I will be using gun tubs removed from a Mahan kit after deckhouse.

I think my options are:

1. Extend the forward end of the Stack deck house to reasonably accommodate the tubs. Spacing from the 40mm mounts to the No.3 5" mount would be same as found on the Mahan kits or closer.

2. Add the two Mk 51 gun tubs on individual elevated pedestals from the main deck or supported from the small deckhouse between the torpedo tubes. (Delete that small deckhouse?)

I am open to any suggestions recognizing that I am building "Almost OOB" and to me, perception is a consideration.

You can see the same deckhouse parts in Martin's picture posted here on February 11, 2008 of parts from a Gridley kit.

[DavidK]

I went to Snyder & Short's USN camouflage guide, and found the Mahan class page, and the row in the matrix for the Perkins is blank (no info for 1941, 1942, or 1943). It looks like nearly all the Mahan's were Ms1 in 1941 and switched to Ms21 in mid to late 1942, so I thought I'd go with Ms1 for Perkins in early 1942?

Does that seem to make sense?

Dave

[DavidK]

DD's 376, 378 and 379 all had similar configs. By August, there were 20MM in all 7 locations.

DD-376: https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collec ... 97853.html
DD-378: https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collec ... 32237.html
DD-379 (background): https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collec ... 33052.html

Great pictures! It looks like the AA layout was following a consistent plan for all four of the ships (Perkins and the three other Mahan's in the photos). It's hard to tell on Perkins from the hi-res photo what is going on around the aft funnel - whether or not there are any AA guns (.50's or 20mm) to port and starboard - she spent most of the first half of 1942 in the south Pacific. The two 20mm in front of the bridge are visible in the hi-res Perkins photo from Feb 1942, in addition to the two (or three) on the forward end of the aft deckhouse.

Dave

[Dick J]

What is the deal with the gun shelters on the forward 5"/38s on the Mahan-class?
It looks like the port-side has a bump on it, while the Starboard-side is flat.

The plans for the Mk. 21 Gun Mounts with the Shelters have a strange asymmetry as well.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0535111.jpg
The open-backed gun shields on the Farragut and Mahan classes did have a projection on the left side of the mount. This was to accommodate a feature common to most of the US 5" single guns. They carried a bank of three fuse setters on the left side of the mount. Had shields been fitted to the after guns, the projection would still have been visible on the left side, but would have ended up on the starboard side of the ship when the guns were parked facing aft. On later ships with the fully enclosed 5" gun shields, the gunhouse was slightly wider on the left side to encompass the fuse setters. Most kit manufacturers miss the asymmetry on the fully enclosed mounts, so it is hardly surprising that Midships and others either missed or misrepresented the projection on the open-backed shields.

[MatthewB]

DD's 376, 378 and 379 all had similar configs. By August, there were 20MM in all 7 locations.

DD-376: https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collec ... 97853.html
DD-378: https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collec ... 32237.html
DD-379 (background): https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collec ... 33052.html

Great pictures! It looks like the AA layout was following a consistent plan for all four of the ships (Perkins and the three other Mahan's in the photos). It's hard to tell on Perkins from the hi-res photo what is going on around the aft funnel - whether or not there are any AA guns (.50's or 20mm) to port and starboard - she spent most of the first half of 1942 in the south Pacific. The two 20mm in front of the bridge are visible in the hi-res Perkins photo from Feb 1942, in addition to the two (or three) on the forward end of the aft deckhouse.

Dave

About the AA guns.

From doing some image processing, the positions P/S of the aft stack look to be empty stands for the .50 Caliber mounts.

And what is strange is it looks as if the 20mm guns have been taken from the lower P/S tubs on the Aft Deckhouse.

I thought that strange, but then they could have been doing maintenance on the guns in question. Which could account for why they are absent. But in cycling through the HVS Settings, and Contrast, to do false-color images of the photo (which helps things to stand out, like gun-barrels), those positions show the mount for the .50 cal. and the shields for the 20mms.... But no barrels. And you can see a part of the slide-mount for the 20mm, where the gun normally would sit in the shield.... And there is no barrel on it.

And given the flying of the Ensign at the stern, would indicate that she is in a harbor of some sort, and not in the open seas (at least from what I have been told - I could very well be wrong). But if that is the case, then that is when she would have the guns torn down for maintenance.

So that the normal AA outfit at sea would be the two .50 Cals, and five 20mms.


Oh!

And thank you, Dick, for the info on the Shields on the forward 5"/38s. My mind is now at ease that I was not imagining things.


MB

[Rick E Davis]

OK ... I'm back from NARA, I was there when these questions came up, and after a bunch of other things to attend to, now I can look at my references in detail.

I don't know where to start, but I will start with when USS PERKINS (DD-377) received her twin 40-mm mounts. Both mounts were installed during October 1942 at PHNY. Her yard period began on 20 October and was scheduled to complete on 3 November 1942. She was scheduled to receive besides two twin 40-mm mounts, a FD (Mk4) radar, SG radar, and BL-1 IFF.

I have scanned the 25 February 1942 image of PERKINS taken by USS TANGIER (AV-8). By that time she had SC radar installed but not FD (Mk 4) radar installed and the midships 53 mount removed. Blowing up the TANGIER image PERKINS "looks" to have SIX 20-mm guns at that time. Two 20-mm guns forward of the bridge, two abreast the second funnel (with only railings and no bulwark or canvas covers), and two on the aft deckhouse. I still think the gun in the elevated position on the forward end of the aft deckhouse was a 50-cal MG. By July 1942, sister USS CUSHING (DD-376) after her MINY period, had SEVEN 20-mm guns, the suspected 50-cal MG was replaced with a seventh 20-mm gun. I suspect that PERKINS also had by then replaced the 50-cal MG with a 20-mm gun.

Camo for PERKINS; the February 1942 photo appears to show Ms 21 (technically it was called Ms 11 with 5-N instead of 5-S). It is "possible" that USS PERKINS was painted in Ms 11 with 5-S in February 1942, but unlikely given that she was at MINY starting on 15 January 1942 for installation of radar (removal of the 53 mount and addition of the 20-mm guns) and returned to Pearl Harbor by 25 January. The USN had firmly decided that Ms 11 with 5-N was to be applied in mid-December 1941 and that is what MINY would have applied.







As a contrast to the configuration of USS PERKINS and USS CUSHING (along with USS SMITH (DD-378) and USS PRESTON (DD-379) they formed DesDiv 10), this September 1942 photo of USS REID (DD-369) shows a different arrangement to the aft deckhouse and a total of EIGHT 20-mm guns; two forward of the bridge, two abreast the second funnel, two on the forward end of the aft deckhouse and two atop the small deckhouse on the aft deckhouse. Neither PERKINS or CUSHING would have been modified to this arrangement prior to getting twin 40-mm guns once they had such structures removed. Note that in NONE of these photos, has the FD (Mk 4) radar been installed yet.

[DavidK]

OK ... I'm back from NARA, I was there when these questions came up, and after a bunch of other things to attend to, now I can look at my references in detail.

I don't know where to start, but I will start with when USS PERKINS (DD-377) received her twin 40-mm mounts. Both mounts were installed during October 1942 at PHNY. Her yard period began on 20 October and was scheduled to complete on 3 November 1942. She was scheduled to receive besides two twin 40-mm mounts, a FD (Mk4) radar, SG radar, and BL-1 IFF.

I have scanned the 25 February 1942 image of PERKINS taken by USS TANGIER (AV-8). By that time she had SC radar installed but not FD (Mk 4) radar installed and the midships 53 mount removed. Blowing up the TANGIER image PERKINS "looks" to have SIX 20-mm guns at that time. Two 20-mm guns forward of the bridge, two abreast the second funnel (with only railings and no bulwark or canvas covers), and two on the aft deckhouse. I still think the gun in the elevated position on the forward end of the aft deckhouse was a 50-cal MG. By July 1942, sister USS CUSHING (DD-376) after her MINY period, had SEVEN 20-mm guns, the suspected 50-cal MG was replaced with a seventh 20-mm gun. I suspect that PERKINS also had by then replaced the 50-cal MG with a 20-mm gun.

Camo for PERKINS; the February 1942 photo appears to show Ms 21 (technically it was called Ms 11 with 5-N instead of 5-S). It is "possible" that USS PERKINS was painted in Ms 11 with 5-S in February 1942, but unlikely given that she was at MINY starting on 15 January 1942 for installation of radar (removal of the 53 mount and addition of the 20-mm guns) and returned to Pearl Harbor by 25 January. The USN had firmly decided that Ms 11 with 5-N was to be applied in mid-December 1941 and that is what MINY would have applied.

As a contrast to the configuration of USS PERKINS and USS CUSHING (along with USS SMITH (DD-378) and USS PRESTON (DD-379) they formed DesDiv 10), this September 1942 photo of USS REID (DD-369) shows a different arrangement to the aft deckhouse and a total of EIGHT 20-mm guns; two forward of the bridge, two abreast the second funnel, two on the forward end of the aft deckhouse and two atop the small deckhouse on the aft deckhouse. Neither PERKINS or CUSHING would have been modified to this arrangement prior to getting twin 40-mm guns once they had such structures removed. Note that in NONE of these photos, has the FD (Mk 4) radar been installed yet.

Thanks. Great insight and lots of information. I was going to go with Measure 1-Dark Gray, which I was going to assume had faded over time to a not so dark gray, but you seem to think 5-N, so that makes a big difference. I was also going to put 50 caliber MG on either side of the second stack, since the positions seemed exposed (as you also mentioned), and so I didn't think 20 mm had been put there yet. I was also going to put a 20 mm in the high centerline spot on the aft deckhouse rather than a 50 cal. So lots of changes are being made to my original plan.

Dave

[Rick E Davis]

The elevated gun could be a 20-mm gun. It just looks different than a typical 20-mm gun covered with canvas, more like a 50-cal MG. Plus, all the other 20-mm guns are locked down in the horizontal position, this gun isn't. Typical canvas covered 50-cal guns without the ammo magazine looks like this image

zDD416x24crop-7May41.jpg (31.14 KiB) Viewed 4604 times

As I said, even if the gun is a 50-cal MG in February 1942, I suspect it wasn't long before it was replaced with a 20-mm gun like her sister.

Also, I'm still puzzled about the 20-mm gun on the aft deckhouse. I don't see two 20-mm guns. It maybe that she only had one 20-mm gun there in February 1942.

In the AWM images of PERKINS on Navsource dating from June 1942 (bow on view, the other two views have conflicting dates and configuration info), show the after deckhouse 20-mm guns more outboard than the 20-mm gun clearly seen on the aft deckhouse in the TANGIER photo.

[Vladi]

Hello guys,
just by chance - would anyone be able to suggest the original source of this drawing on this website? There is no reference on the site as to where all the drawings come from...

[Frank Fowler]

Hi Vladi, The drawings you are asking about are from Norman Friedman's book "U.S. Destroyers, An Illustrated Design History". The plans were done by A.D. Baker III. Looks like they were scanned and posted on the website you linked.

[Vladi]

Hi Frank, thanks a lot - I thought it will be the case of Friedman, I will have to get this one...

[Admiral John Byng]

I have ordered a Dragon 1/350 USS Benson and I was wondering if there are any other classes (apart from the Gleaves class which Dragon also do a kit of) that can be made from the kit?

[Rick E Davis]

The SIMS class can be made using the DML BENSON-GLEAVES class kit with a 3-D printed stack and midships "torpedo tubes" deckhouse ... https://www.shapeways.com/shops/bobssta ... Parts+&s=0 ... An aft deckhouse is also available for one version of the SIMS class units. The deckhouse on the BENSON-GLEAVES kits can be modified by extending it forward to build several other configurations.

[Admiral John Byng]

Thanks Rick. I will definitely do a Sims class! I was hoping Shapeways would have something but their search engine is hopeless.

[raggs]

I'm halfway thru a build of a Midships 1/700 Dunlap I'm converting to the USS Smith.

My question is the location of fire fighting equipment on a Mahan. I've searched Navsource and
cannot come up with a location for the hose lines.

Then again, I'm looking for the "draped" fire hoses that are cradled, like on later destroyers.

Perhaps I should be looking for hose REELS?

Thanks,

Paul

[Rick E Davis]

What time period are you modeling USS SMITH?

I could look through what images I have with a better focus on the time period you are shooting for.

[raggs]

Thanks Rick, building her late 44, early 45.