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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:51 am 
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OP 805 (First Revision) page 553 says CL 40-42 received Mk 32 dual 5"/38 mounts, but doesn't say which Mods. Since they had 5"/25s initially, the 5"/38s would have been retrofitted later, as when the Savannah was in the Philadelphia yards to repair bomb damage.

One telltale to look for identifying dual mount types is whether or not a training stop buffer is attached to the bottom front of the mount. It is on the lower front of some Mk 32s (Mods 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10, 12). Some Mk 32s (Mods 0, 1, 2 and 6) have the training stop buffer at the rear of the stand or mounting ring, internally or under the rear overhang of the mount (there were no Mk 32 Mods 7 and 11).

In 1944 the Savanna dual mounts did not have external training stop buffers. So they must have been Mk 32 Mods 0, 1, 2 or 6.

Mods 0 and 2 were similar, some with lighter armor than the others - the lighter versions were for destroyers. Mod 1 had the heaviest armor of the Mk 32s without the front training stop buffer. Mod 6 was a light weight version for destroyers.

Mods 0, 1 and 2 would have been used on cruisers (the heavier versions of 0 and 2). There wasn't much visible difference. The heavier Mod 0 and 2 had 1" front armor and 0.75" side/top. Mod 1 had 1.25" armor all around.

So take your choice of Mk 32 Mods 0-2.

Phil

PS: Looking over OP 805 again, the Mk 32 Mod 1 mounts were installed on CL-95 through CL-98 and CL-119 through CL-121.

Mk 32 Mods 0 and 2 were installed on Clevelands from CL-55 on except CL-87 that had Mod 0. Mk 32 Mod 2 was installed on late war Clevelands CL-89-93.

Since Mod 2s were being built for Clevelands at the time the Savanna was refitted, I'd bet Savanna got Mk 32 Mod 2 mounts.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:56 am 
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DrPR wrote:
OP 805 (First Revision) page 553 says CL 40-42 received Mk 32 dual 5"/38 mounts,
It is interesting that the reference includes CL-40 and CL-41 as having the dual mounts since the photos of them in foreign service prove they did not. They did, however, receive the hull blisters. Only CL-42 and CL-48 got the full mod with the twin 5" mounts.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:12 am 
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Excellent info in here - thanks all. Much appreciated. The level of collective knowledge on this board is simply unsurpassed.

Any ideas on the mark/mod of the Mark 34 director shields? This is an area I consistently am unable to find good info on.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:23 pm 
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The original Brooklyn MK-34 directors lacked the rangefinder found on all later models of the director. These were later modified to incorporate a rangefinder, but the resulting structure was the more bulky version seen in the photos. I don't know how the documentation described the change, but in all probability, they didn't assign a new mark to it, just a mod. The same early version was installed on the heavy cruiser Vincennes, but she was lost with her directors unmodified.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:56 pm 
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Makes sense - I'm now remembering how I asked this question in another thread a while back and got the same answer. ;)

Next question for you guys: all the photos of CL-42 Savannah show the ship with a section of dark paint on the amidships quad Bofors towers. Since all the photos are B&W, no idea what color this was - but my guess is Navy Blue (5-N) based on the Measure 22 scheme as well as the fact it seems to match the tone of the hull in some photos. This area is painted in a dark color in the September & October 1944 photos as well as the April 1945 photos, which leads me to believe it isn't just a missed area of primer or "underway painting". The pattern is identical port & starboard as well. Is this just an attempt to break up a rather flat and featureless grey area with some dark color?

Image

Interestingly, by Navy Day of 1945 it seems to be grey:

Image

Any ideas?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:51 pm 
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What kits are available for a build of a 1/350th USS Savannah during either 1939-1941 or during her South Atlantic Patrol in 1943.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:15 am 
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Only one i know of is the old Classic Warships 1/350 Brooklyn kit, not sure Yankee Model Works ever got around to re-releasing it. Best of luck finding one.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:58 am 
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Here's the result of all my questioning in this thread - a Shipbucket format illustration of CL-42 in 1944.

Special thanks to Roger Torgeson (who provided many awesome high-res photos via email), and Rick Davis and the rest of the gents in this thread for their extremely helpful guidance getting everything right. Thanks guys!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:08 pm 
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Gents -

I was wanting to draw some more of the class, so I started lining up sources for the USS Boise CL-47 and noticed that the rest of the Brooklyn class reference drawings I have don't match up with the Profile Morskie plans I used as a dimensional reference for the drawing of Savannah (what a surprise). Interestingly enough, the Profile Morskie plans of Nashville don't match Savannah either! Both CL-42 and CL-43 were built at Camden by NYSB... so in my mind, there's no reason for there to be such a discrepancy in layout for the two (as my comparison of plans seems to indicate). My sad suspicion is that the plans from Profile Morskie are just (as many of the modellers here have discovered to their dismay) just inaccurate...

Here's a comparison of the two. Nashville 1944 is green, Savannah 1944 is red: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

Any ideas?

Interestingly, the Profile Morskie plans of Nashville 1944 perfectly match the Floating Drydock "TFW" series drawings for Nashville 1944 (I suspect they were traced). These drawings also match the Alan Raven drawings of Brooklyn "as built" and a copy of Phoenix's outboard profile from the Booklet of General Plans from 1944. This leaves me with no other conclusion than to judge the Profile Morskie Savannah drawings as inaccurate.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Another query for you guys - are there any photos existing of Boise (or any of the class) with King Board modifications prior to the war, other than the usual stuff available on Navsource? For Boise, I have 80-G-279384, which shows the ship in Measure 1 camouflage off Hawaii. I'm wondering if there are any good closeup shots of the bridge area, since it looks like some parts of it have been modified from the as-built config. The splinter shielding around the Mark 34 director foundation looks to be built up, with small platforms aft (for .50 cals or searchlights?), and I imagine there are other areas I'm missing. It also looks like splinter shielding (or maybe just canvas) is mounted ahead of the conning tower.

Also, is that the elusive "FA" fire control radar I see above the Mark 34 director? :wave_1:

I'm trying to make a drawing of Boise during the ship's time with the Asiatic Fleet and want to make sure it's as accurate as possible.

Image

The photo of Phoenix underway out of Pearl Harbor on 7 Dec has a similar configuration, but I haven't found a higher-resolution copy of this photo (NH 50766) - and I can't find anything else on NHHC or Navsource.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:50 am 
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Colosseum wrote:
Also, is that the elusive "FA" fire control radar I see above the Mark 34 director?

There were two versions of the FC radar (later known as MK-3). One was narrow vertically and wider than the director base as seen here on the Chicago: http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/029/0402932.jpg
The other version was more square as seen here on Helena: http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/050/0405006.jpg
Your Boise photo appears to show the square version of the FC antenna.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:03 am 
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Dick J wrote:
Colosseum wrote:
Also, is that the elusive "FA" fire control radar I see above the Mark 34 director?

There were two versions of the FC radar (later known as MK-3). One was narrow vertically and wider than the director base as seen here on the Chicago: http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/029/0402932.jpg
The other version was more square as seen here on Helena: http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/050/0405006.jpg
Your Boise photo appears to show the square version of the FC antenna.


Right - I've seen the two types of the Mark 3 "FC" before. Friedman mentions the "square" type as the Mark 3 Mod.1, with the "oblong" type as the Mark 3 Mod.2. I wasn't aware this radar was available pre-war. Friedman's Naval Radar mentions the "Mark 1 (CXAS) / FA":

Image

He states that "ten were built for use with Mk 34 directors", but only mentions Wichita as the first installation in June of 1941 - hence my initial confusion. The Mark 3 entry clarifies that Philadelphia was the first to receive a Mark 3 set (in October of 1941), so seems very likely that Phoenix and Boise also received Mark 3 Mod.1 "square" types too.

Thanks for the clarification Dick J!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:16 am 
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Finding photos of any USN ships in the immediate period before the USA entered WWII showing King Board mods, is difficult. The USN tried to restrict photos of their ships starting in that period from being released for public publication. Not many have survived.

As for the radar in question being the "FA" model, I'm not sure, but would guess it is. The replacement radar was the FC and the first Mods (Mod 1 or 3) of this radar "appears" to have used the same "square"antenna that was roughly 6x6-ft square. Mod 0 or 2 FC radar used the oblong antenna roughly 12x3-ft. Only ten FA sets were built, the first set was installed on USS WICHITA in June 1941, having a short range of detection (about 3-5 miles for surface ships) and were replaced with the improved "FC" radar. The first FC radar was installed on USS PHILADELPHIA in October 1941. This short period and poor reliability of the FA radar likely means it was replaced pretty rapidly. The shape of the antenna reflector on BOISE and BROOKLYN would indicate a fairly "fat" radar beam with poor angular direction, whereas the antenna for the FC radar would give a narrower fan beam providing better angular direction.

I can't speak to exact locations or even the numbers of the 50-cal MGs in the pre 20-mm gun era on this class.

Even the installation of the quad 1.1-in mounts on this class was limited prior to the Attack on Pearl Harbor. I believe only BROOKLYN, PHILADELPHIA, St LOUIS and HELENA had them installed or were in the process of having them installed from the records I have seen. Once the war with Japan started, armament upgrades accelerated so that by 1 July 1942 all but one of the class had their quad 1.1-in mounts and about twelve 20-mm guns.

Here are a couple views of the bridge area for BROOKLYN class cruisers based in the Atlantic early in WWII.

The image below and close-crop of the bridge is USS BROOKLYN (CL-40) dated 8 December 1941 (never quite trust dates on 80-G captions without additional info)

Image

Image

This close-crop image of USS PHILADELPHIA (CL-41) bridge is dated sometime in January 1942. She has the FC radar installed.

Image


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:07 pm 
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Boise Aug. '41
Image


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:46 pm 
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Beautiful photos guys - extremely helpful even if there aren't that many existing from the period.

Any idea on the color scheme for the SOC Seagull floatplanes embarked at the time? I'm not sure where to even start for this kind of stuff.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:48 pm 
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Dana Bell would know.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:08 pm 
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Well, I can tell you that in Aug.'41 they were overall light gray. I believe Oct. '41 is when they went to the two toned scheme.
Image
Image
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Image


Last edited by Jeff Sharp on Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:35 am 
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Awesome, thanks guys... the "two tone" scheme as I understand it is the blue/grey scheme I've seen on most of the early wartime planes - is that right? Did this scheme retain the "9-CS-x" markings (which denotes the xth aircraft of VCS-9, etc) or did they switch to something else?

Anyway, here's the result of my questioning (let me know if the aircraft color scheme looks correct): http://shipbucket.com/drawings/7635/file


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:24 pm 
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I'm not an expert on USN aircraft markings and the timing of changes. Dana Bell would be the best person to answer these questions.

However, I can say that at least by September 1941 (maybe earlier?) the paint scheme changed on USN aircraft to the Blue-Gray top surfaces and Light Gray on the underside based on a photo of USS ARIZONA I scanned dated in early September 1941. As for unit markings, they were still carried as was done in late 1941 well into 1942. I know from photos I have that they started to simply number the aircraft like "1", "2", etc depending on how many were carried. I think as much because crash losses caused a rapid turn-over in aircraft carried onboard. It appears that the markings were painted in either black or some other lighter color.

Below are close-up crop views of aircraft;

The fantail of USS BROOKLYN from that same 8 December 1941 "dated" photo that I posted a cropped view of the bridge area.

Attachment:
zCL40x15FantailCrop-8Dec41.jpg
zCL40x15FantailCrop-8Dec41.jpg [ 105.03 KiB | Viewed 4325 times ]


This view was taken at MINY on 15 February 1942 of USS PORTLAND

Attachment:
zCA33x12crop-15Feb42.jpg
zCA33x12crop-15Feb42.jpg [ 155.94 KiB | Viewed 4325 times ]


This close-crop view of USS VINCENNES aircraft taken at PHNY in May 1942 shows that the aircraft still has markings

Image

USS ARIZONA recovering aircraft in a photo dated 8 September 1941. The aspect angle of this view doesn't allow seeing the unit markings on her aircraft, but the new colors are quite apparent. Additional views of this sequence of photos that can be seen on Navsource, do show aircraft unit markings in black.

Image


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Colosseum wrote:
Did this scheme retain the "9-CS-x" markings (which denotes the xth aircraft of VCS-9, etc) or did they switch to something else?


They kept the markings but changed the color from white to black. Here are a couple of pics of Portland's planes on 12/7/41.
Image

Image


Last edited by Jeff Sharp on Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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