Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans

[pbudzik]

The plating diagram pdf can be found here ...

http://paulbudzik.com/current-projects/ ... lating.pdf

Paul

[ijnfleetadmiral]

Today, RV Petrel's team announced they have found the wreck of USS Hornet.

https://news.usni.org/2019/02/12/41053

[MartinJQuinn]

Today, RV Petrel's team announced they have found the wreck of USS Hornet.

https://news.usni.org/2019/02/12/41053

As noted in the main forum, here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=177009&p=761268#p761268

[Thomas E. Johnson]

The plating diagram pdf can be found here ...

http://paulbudzik.com/current-projects/ ... lating.pdf

Paul

So her hull plates were in pretty small sectioned plates? Going to be a pain in the ass to simulate that on the 1/200 Hornet hull.....

[Captain Morgan]

Today, RV Petrel's team announced they have found the wreck of USS Hornet.

https://news.usni.org/2019/02/12/41053

Based on the photos. I wonder who will make an aftermarket deck tractor for Hornet.

[FRED BRANYAN]

Using mostly the camo patterns I have matched some of the CBS footage/photos to locations as follows--

5" gun section shown with red primer on the bulkhead and hull number--Port bow
Vertical plate at 0257-0301 that looks like where the liferafts were--unknown that plate did not have a ladder on L side per photos. Still trying to figure that one out.
0305--#2 1.1 and director tower
0319--Guessing one of the forward 5" gun tubs. No pattern visible due to lighting. Both aft tubs had no camo on the bulkheads based on photos I have. Both forward ones did.
0332--Hull number port bow perfect match for camo pattern.
0355--0419--Starboard aft gun tub. Rich Nowatzki emailed me that he saw a bomb hit that position after he was in the water and that one of the 2 guns was blown off the ship. He did not know until he saw this footage which gun it was. His gun 7 is still there, my father's gun 5 was blown off.
0437/0458--F4F4 side number placement for the benefit of model builders.
0448--Appears to be 1.1 #1.
0500--Starboard bow 5" gun

[Rick E Davis]

This link on M/V Petrel - Allen's Facebook has thirteen images, some are new, and provides the location of the various images ...

... https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... _tn__=HH-R ...

[FRED BRANYAN]

Based on the diagrams in Warships Battle Damage 1 and camo patterns for the recent batch of photos--

The photo of the starboard hangar deck is at the front end of the most forward opening on that side based on the angled upper corners.

The hangar deck photo with 2 light spots in the camo appears to match the aft end of the port side boat pod. The camo pattern is close but not a perfect match for the photos I have, however both the diagram and photos suggest that was the only part of the hangar deck with that type of curve in it. Starboard side pattern in that area is not close to the one in the photo.

[FRED BRANYAN]

Footage of the island recently showed up here-- https://www.facebook.com/15107522489602 ... 68?sfns=mo

Truly amazing how the Navy Blue on Hornet is very close to that on the port hull of Juneau and all of the other ships with MS 12 Mod these fine folks have found. And now we have real samples of both shades of grey on the island to try to match after 76 years of wear and tear.

[FRED BRANYAN]

I changed the contrast and brightness on the stills in the 0257-0301 range in my first post above.

They are the lower and middle levels of the forward end of the island.

[Rod Dickson]

For Rick Davis. Not just another International Harvester ...

When I saw it I thought "WTF!"

[Rick E Davis]

I believe all USN ships had "Small Arms" armories onboard. Destroyers had small quantities of such weapons. The big ships like battleships had large quantities including weapons for "Landing Parties". From some accounts I have read, particularly during the Solomons campaign, there is mention of use of 50-cal MGs onboard ships well after 50-cal water-cooled MGs had been replaced by 20-mm guns to supplant the AA firepower. ALL SHIPS were wanting MORE AA firepower against Japanese airplanes. How effect they were as AA weapons, is not clear, but whoever manned them likely felt better knowing that they could shoot at the enemy. Witness accounts say that USS JUNEAU (CL-52) had 50-cal MGs in use during her last battle. These air-cooled USMC/US Army type guns, could be utilized almost anywhere on the ship with room to manuever the gun (hopefully the gun crew didn't shoot into the ship in the process). During the late war period as USN ships got closer to Japan, the Japanese released floating mines and escorting destroyers noted frequently in War Diaries "shooting" mines to explode them. Some of the SUMNER class Fast Minelayers (DM), were actually authorized EXTRA 50-cal MGs for that purpose. Whether that is the case here, I don't know.

Also, it could be as noted, from a IJN aircraft that hit USS HORNET's bridge?

A cool find Rod.

[Rod Dickson]

Thanks, Rick. Well I got an e:mail in to Petrel see if they say anything.
I have heard of smaller machine guns used from landing craft on sea transports to backseaters of dive bombers on the flight deck when under air attack.

I wish I had a larger picture of HORNET during this action-but what I have gets too pix-elated when I zoom in to 1.1 areas

[John W.]

For Rick Davis. Not just another International Harvester ...

When I saw it I thought "WTF!"

Looking at this picture, it seems to be the #3 1.1" mount - the structure on the right is the clipping room structure and the flight deck crane is just to the left of the clipping room. It looks as though the circular splinter shield is really only about half the diameter - the portion in the direction of the flight deck open space. I have seen pictures of ENTERPRISE with this configuration, so I am not suggesting it was blown away, but rather it is just not there intentionally. Looking at the tray for the ammo clips to the left in the picture, it looks as if the tray is just neatly terminated there with a rounded off end, not that it was ripped away. On the other hand I have the USN / Shipyard plans that show (apparently) the splinter ring completely encircles the mount.
So my question is: was the splinter shield / tub like this from the time she left Norfolk after all the post-commissioning mods were done there? Or was she modified to this configuration later, say when the hangar deck cats were removed and the fifth 1.1" mount put on the bow bandstand? I am modeling the Raid, so that's really what I am most interested in nailing down. I'm not sure how leaving off that section of shielding accomplished much that was positive. It would seem to make the gun crew more vulnerable to flight deck hazards from landing crashes. But what do I know?

Just as an observation, I am not sure how HORNET could have lost 50 meters of her stern based on the pictures. If the #7 5" mount is correctly identified by Fred (and I believe it is), there is not much ship aft of that 5" gallery - maybe 50', literally the stern to the back of the #3 elevator structure. The sidescan sonar image makes it appear the rear half or so of the flight deck was stripped off, but that may be an illusion from the angle of the scan which could put the flight deck in a "shadow" of the sonar beam.
Great pictures!

[Dick J]

Looking at this picture, it seems to be the #3 1.1" mount - the structure on the right is the clipping room structure and the flight deck crane is just to the left of the clipping room. It looks as though the circular splinter shield is really only about half the diameter - the portion in the direction of the flight deck open space. I have seen pictures of ENTERPRISE with this configuration, so I am not suggesting it was blown away, but rather it is just not there intentionally. Looking at the tray for the ammo clips to the left in the picture, it looks as if the tray is just neatly terminated there with a rounded off end, not that it was ripped away. On the other hand I have the USN / Shipyard plans that show (apparently) the splinter ring completely encircles the mount.
So my question is: was the splinter shield / tub like this from the time she left Norfolk after all the post-commissioning mods were done there? Or was she modified to this configuration later, say when the hangar deck cats were removed and the fifth 1.1" mount put on the bow bandstand? I am modeling the Raid, so that's really what I am most interested in nailing down. I'm not sure how leaving off that section of shielding accomplished much that was positive. It would seem to make the gun crew more vulnerable to flight deck hazards from landing crashes. But what do I know?

The "open-backed" tub was configured that way at Midway. So it was probably that way from the first installation of the tubs.

Just as an observation, I am not sure how HORNET could have lost 50 meters of her stern based on the pictures. If the #7 5" mount is correctly identified by Fred (and I believe it is), there is not much ship aft of that 5" gallery - maybe 50', literally the stern to the back of the #3 elevator structure. The sidescan sonar image makes it appear the rear half or so of the flight deck was stripped off, but that may be an illusion from the angle of the scan which could put the flight deck in a "shadow" of the sonar beam.
Great pictures!

The "'big-picture" sonar scan shows both the main section and the stern. Both were explored and photographed. Considering how many torpedoes hit that area, the break point aft of the #2 elevator is understandable.

[Vlad]

Sorry if this has been asked before, hopefully a quick and easy pair of questions:

1) Did Hornet launch her own CAP during the Doolittle raid? Were F4Fs spotted forward of the B-25s, or was there never anything on deck other than the bombers?

2) Is there a diagram of how the B-25s were spotted on the flight deck for launch? I found a picture looking aft from the bridge, but I only count 12 aircraft in the shot not all 16.

[Captain Morgan]

Sorry if this has been asked before, hopefully a quick and easy pair of questions:

1) Did Hornet launch her own CAP during the Doolittle raid? Were F4Fs spotted forward of the B-25s, or was there never anything on deck other than the bombers?

2) Is there a diagram of how the B-25s were spotted on the flight deck for launch? I found a picture looking aft from the bridge, but I only count 12 aircraft in the shot not all 16.

There were F4F's forward during the transit to the launch point but the B-25's were spread out from relatively far forward to far aft along the flight deck.

For launch the B-25's were moved to the aft end of the flight deck to about half way down the island IIRC. With the exception of the last two planes the B-25's were angled pointing to the centerline of the flight deck instead of lined up facing straight forward. The front aircraft did face straight forward since they were in single file alongside the island.

The following photos are from Navsource.

This is how they looked during transit.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020833d.jpg
This is how it looked getting ready for takeoff

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020846a.jpg
This is supposed to be Doolittle himself taking off

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020807b.jpg
This model is incorrect

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020870f.jpg

[Captain Morgan]

Other photos from Navsource

8 B-25 and 2 SBD's on the way to Japan

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020872.jpg

View of the farthest forward B-25 (Doolittle's)

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020825.jpg

Looking at Doolittle's plane with 5 F4F's forward of the forward elevator which is lowered.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020833e.jpg

[Vlad]

Yeah, I've studied all the photos on Navsource but still didn't feel like I had the complete picture, that's why I asked. Your photos aren't showing so I assume you meant this one:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020846a.jpg

I count 6x B-25 on the starboard side behind the island, front 5 angled inwards, rear one facing straight. Then 7x B-25 on the port side, front 6 angled inwards, rear one straight. Then 1 B-25 lined up for take-off, bottom right of the picture. That's 14, so 2 missing, presumably out ot of shot to the right? That means 3x B-25 lined up alongside the island, facing forward, correct?

Also, how on earth was the picture supposedly of Doolittle's plane taking off even taken from that angle? And if that is Doolittle's plane, then all remaining B-25s on the flight deck are parked angled inward?

[Guest]

Yeah, I've studied all the photos on Navsource but still didn't feel like I had the complete picture, that's why I asked. Your photos aren't showing so I assume you meant this one:



I count 6x B-25 on the starboard side behind the island, front 5 angled inwards, rear one facing straight. Then 7x B-25 on the port side, front 6 angled inwards, rear one straight. Then 1 B-25 lined up for take-off, bottom right of the picture. That's 14, so 2 missing, presumably out ot of shot to the right? That means 3x B-25 lined up alongside the island, facing forward, correct?

Also, how on earth was the picture supposedly of Doolittle's plane taking off even taken from that angle? And if that is Doolittle's plane, then all remaining B-25s on the flight deck are parked angled inward?

Anyone else not seeing the images on the last several posts?