The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:14 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2520 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113 ... 126  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:03 pm
Posts: 492
I'm closing in on finishing my Arizona build and was wondering what flags would be hung/flown while in port? I've also seen contradicting positions for the American flag. Any advise would be greatly appreciated! Thank You in advance.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:44 pm
Posts: 107
As for the U.S. flag in-port when I was in the Navy during the late 70's was flown at the stern and I believe the union jack (blue with white stars was flown at the bow. At sea the U.S. flag was flown from the mast. I'm not sure about the union jack. As for what other flags might have been flown I'm not sure.

I don't think the in-port positions of the flags would have changed between the 30's and 40's to the 70's when I was in because the Navy is nothing if not tradition bound.

Franz


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:41 pm
Posts: 2927
Location: Mocksville, NC
prowannab,

Franz is correct - In port, USN commissioned vessels fly the U.S. flag from the stern flag staff and the union jack from the bow jack staff. When underway or leaving port, the Jack is lowered and the U.S. flag shifted to the flag halyard on the main mast of the ship. This hasn't changed at all!!

Hope this helps,

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:44 pm
Posts: 107
It just hit me she would also have been flying a Rear Admirals pennant for Rear Admiral Kidd and a Church pennant (white with a blue cross flown above the U.S. Flag see below for reason why).

A correction on my previous post it's the "Jack of the United States" vs "Union Jack" which is the Royal Navy.

I'm not sure if the Rear Admirals Pennant would have been flown from the main mast in port. It's dumb that I can't remember as I served on Com 7th Fleet (USS Oklahoma City) for 2 years out of Yokouska Japan.

As for any other flags I don't think signal flags would have been flown in-port and normally running flags on rigging going from the bow to the main mast and to the stern (Dressing Ships) would have been for ceremonial purposes.

I found the following as a response to a question of why a church pennant is raised above the American flag during worship services on a web site:

"Im writing to you as a former member of the Royal Navy of just over four years, this is actually correct procedure when flying this flag (THE USN and the Royal Navy follow the same flag procedures), this is because its not actually a Christian flag as such but is that of the Chaplaincy and as such is considered a non combatant and is protected during war, so in theory a ship flying this flag on a Sunday cannot be fired upon during war as part of the Geneva convention.

The reason its flown above the US flag is due to the flags neutrality and therefore superseding that of the Country’s flag indicating that it is neutral at this point, ie it overrides the Stars and Stripes."

You can do a search on "US Navy church Pennant" and look at "Images for US Navy church Pennant"

Obviously the Japanese did not follow the Geneva convention on December 7th.

One other note:

I did see signal flags on a ship form the period that were rigged around the outer edge of the stern awning as decoration for Sunday Services. A close look at the Arial photo of the Arizona under the attack looks like something was running around the edge of the stern awning (see my first post from page 99 of 112 on Tuesday of July 10th at 5:05pm in which I think it looked like canvas).

That rounds it out.



Franz


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:15 pm
Posts: 953
Franz wrote:
Jeff, really looks interesting. Can you pass the link to the movie?

Thanks

Franz


Hi Franz, Sorry, I totally missed this request.
Here is a link to a colorized version of the footage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8ADLzifm9M

Here's a view of Arizona's church pennant flying from her mainmast.
Image

Here is one on a stern of some unidentifiable ship.
Image

I think Kidd's flag was up on the main mast when the attack started (really hard to be sure with this photo) but I don't think either the church pennant or the American flag were raised up yet. At some point while the attack was in the early stages the American flag did indeed get raised up on her stern.
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:44 pm
Posts: 107
Jeff,
First off thanks for the link! Secondly I thought I read a first hand account of an individual on the ship who was going to raise the church pennant when the attack started. I don't recall if they completed the task or not.

As for how to complete the model I would still add both the US flag and the Church pennant because that's how she would have looked Sunday morning even though you may be correct that they didn't have time to raise them. I guess it boils down to complete accuracy at the moment of the attack vs how you want to display the model. So in other words the above is just my personal preference.

Thanks for the photos of the church pennant and I think your right about were Kidd's flag flew it's just that with my lousy memory I didn't want to mislead anyone.

And still looking at the photo you provided of the Arizona under attack it still looks like canvas was along the rails under the stern awning even though I can't find any post pictures showing it. It could have been blown off by the blast.

One other note on the stern awning if you look closely at some of the post attack pictures you can clearly see that the stern aircraft crane was used to hold the center of the awning up. I saw this being done on another battleship photo though I cant remember which.

Sorry for another wordy response.

Franz


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:03 pm
Posts: 492
I thank you both for your most informative posts! I can always count on this forum for the most accurate info,even sometimes it may be best thoughts,But still very informative. Thanks again!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:21 pm
Posts: 77
After a couple weeks of periodic reading, I went back through every page of this thread!

I wanted to share my current project with you all here. I'm developing a 1/1200 USS Arizona for 3D printing. I welcome any comments on my progress so far. Some items I'm limited on due to printer resolution such as the size of the cranes and the thickness of the splinter shields around the deck mounted 5" guns.

I plan to build 3 different models of this ship once I'm done; 1 in early 1941 either docked or sailing, 1 mid 1941 sailing, and 1 moored with awnings in Dec 1941.


Attachments:
USS Arizona Hull Day 11 reduced.png
USS Arizona Hull Day 11 reduced.png [ 146.75 KiB | Viewed 2099 times ]

_________________
Michael

Love building and CAD modeling WWII Capital Ships

1/1200 Battle of Hampton Roads diorama in progress
1/1200 1945 USS Pennsylvania CAD model in progress
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:21 pm
Posts: 77
DavidP wrote:
the angle of the stern in the way it sticks out is too steep as is the bow protruding in as the bow is a rambow so does not curve that way. look at this link & you'll see what I'm talking about. http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... 85-2_a.jpg


I just found that site today! Thank you for highlighting that though, I'm correcting it right now.

On a related note, is there a way to print those plans out to keep them scaled? I will need to use those when I create the superstructure.

_________________
Michael

Love building and CAD modeling WWII Capital Ships

1/1200 Battle of Hampton Roads diorama in progress
1/1200 1945 USS Pennsylvania CAD model in progress


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:21 pm
Posts: 77
DavidP wrote:
probably depends on what drawing program(s) you are using if it allow jpeg or pdf import to be printed out. me I just print them out on 8.5"x 14" legal paper & work out the scale of the size between the dimensions of the model I'm working on & the drawing. I've downloaded those drawings from that site & printed them out to correct Revell's 1/429 scale model of the Arizona for my Arizona kitbash thread in this link. viewtopic.php?f=59&t=165105


That's easy enough. Thank you for the help!

_________________
Michael

Love building and CAD modeling WWII Capital Ships

1/1200 Battle of Hampton Roads diorama in progress
1/1200 1945 USS Pennsylvania CAD model in progress


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:28 pm
Posts: 748
Location: Downey, California
harristotle:

Also, note that those big, octagonal plates port & starboard of the mainmast (the turbine access panels) were planked, not bare metal, in spite of what most kits and drawings show. Even in the booklet of general plans drawings it appears that they should be exposed, but the fact is that on the drawings they don't actually show all the planking lines, just hatch-in a hint of the planking around the edges of the deck. It saves a lot of drawing clutter, making hatches and other deck fittings easier to see - which in general terms is more important information to show on such drawings than an exact representation of the planking. But for a model representing the subject in-use, it's not what you'd actually see. The planking is not continuous strait across them, but has a "frame" around the perimeter of the hatches, so there is still some visual interest to be had.

- Sean F.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:28 pm
Posts: 303
Location: Mesa, Arizona
Wow, been a while since I've checked in on this thread. Lots of stuff going on!

Franz,

Thanks for your comments several pages ago on my build. All of my strake/plate work was just educated guessed based on some pictures of AZ and others. I'm happy with how they came out, although they may not be entirely accurate. And to answer your other question, I am still working on my 1/200 AZ, just going very slow and haven't documented much. I intend to get back on it soon. I have to finish it this yeas as my hobby room likely has to go away next year to make way for a nursery.

Sorry to everybody else for the old posts I'm about to drag up lol

_________________
-Nelson
Current Project:
1:200 U.S.S. Arizona
1:350 U.S.S. Chicago SSN-721

Future Projects:
All of them!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:28 pm
Posts: 303
Location: Mesa, Arizona
Jeff Sharp wrote:
Yeah, 1935 at the latest.

Here are a couple of stills from film spliced together of the wreck. By this time, turret #3 guns had been turned to the starboard side and then removed. Only the sides of the turret remained. On the far left of this pic you can kind of see what is left of turret #3. If the guns were still there, they would be just out of the pic and they would be pointing towards the camera. Only one of the remaining sides is visible here with half of it in shadow..

Image

Here is the whole view including USS West Virginia.
Image


Not to keep beating the dead horse, but this picture does make Arizonas turret #3 and WeeVees #3&4 look to be similar colors. I know its a created image, but just an observation.

_________________
-Nelson
Current Project:
1:200 U.S.S. Arizona
1:350 U.S.S. Chicago SSN-721

Future Projects:
All of them!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:21 pm
Posts: 77
SeanF wrote:
harristotle:

Also, note that those big, octagonal plates port & starboard of the mainmast (the turbine access panels) were planked, not bare metal, in spite of what most kits and drawings show. Even in the booklet of general plans drawings it appears that they should be exposed, but the fact is that on the drawings they don't actually show all the planking lines, just hatch-in a hint of the planking around the edges of the deck. It saves a lot of drawing clutter, making hatches and other deck fittings easier to see - which in general terms is more important information to show on such drawings than an exact representation of the planking. But for a model representing the subject in-use, it's not what you'd actually see. The planking is not continuous strait across them, but has a "frame" around the perimeter of the hatches, so there is still some visual interest to be had.

- Sean F.


I was looking at pictures on nav source today and see what you mean about them being flush with the deck. I'll remove that from my drawing. It's amazing how many really phenomenal builds on here that I've referenced have those portions of the deck raised and painted.

_________________
Michael

Love building and CAD modeling WWII Capital Ships

1/1200 Battle of Hampton Roads diorama in progress
1/1200 1945 USS Pennsylvania CAD model in progress


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:21 pm
Posts: 77
Here's the latest. Once I'm done with portholes, I'll move on to the detail set.


Attachments:
USS Arizona Hull Day 13 reduced.png
USS Arizona Hull Day 13 reduced.png [ 151.84 KiB | Viewed 3019 times ]

_________________
Michael

Love building and CAD modeling WWII Capital Ships

1/1200 Battle of Hampton Roads diorama in progress
1/1200 1945 USS Pennsylvania CAD model in progress
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:28 pm
Posts: 748
Location: Downey, California
Hey, that's looking good!

Those plates (or lack thereof) are sure to raise questions... model kits and drawings have included them for so long that almost everyone (except us sticklers) "know" they're supposed to be there. In fact, the Trumpeter 1/200 scale kit has the deck planking scribed over them, but also includes plates to glue on top of them - so modelers can have it either way!

Also, good on you for having the casemates open, not presented as rotating cylinders like most kits have done.

- Sean F.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:44 pm
Posts: 107
Hondaman117,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm going even slower than you on my build. I'm still practicing how to make molds of good portholes to replace the elongated ones. I've done a few iterations and still trying to get a better result. I just need to practice a bit more.

Franz


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:44 pm
Posts: 107
Here is a picture showing how the aircraft crane on the stern was used to raise the middle of the stern awning up a bit higher.

Pete


Attachments:
File comment: Crane Holding up awning.
Screen Shot 2018-02-16 at 5.57.46 PM_zpsklxk5zmq.png
Screen Shot 2018-02-16 at 5.57.46 PM_zpsklxk5zmq.png [ 349.17 KiB | Viewed 2952 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:21 pm
Posts: 77
SeanF wrote:
Hey, that's looking good!

Those plates (or lack thereof) are sure to raise questions... model kits and drawings have included them for so long that almost everyone (except us sticklers) "know" they're supposed to be there. In fact, the Trumpeter 1/200 scale kit has the deck planking scribed over them, but also includes plates to glue on top of them - so modelers can have it either way!

Also, good on you for having the casemates open, not presented as rotating cylinders like most kits have done.

- Sean F.


Sean, thank you! I'm happy to have the argument with people with photo reference lol I'm going for accuracy.

Ideally I'd have made little gun emplacements inside the casemates for wire to go into for gun barrels, but its just too small in there. Off the top of my head I think there's like 1.5mm clearance. I have holes designed in the back of the walls that will orient brass wire to the bow and stern as would have been normal running condition from what I understand.

_________________
Michael

Love building and CAD modeling WWII Capital Ships

1/1200 Battle of Hampton Roads diorama in progress
1/1200 1945 USS Pennsylvania CAD model in progress


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:44 pm
Posts: 107
David,

You could very well be right, but I've seen shredded parts of the awning in post attack pictures.

If you give me an alternative to what I'm seeing I'd be more inclined to believe nothing was there.

If you look closely at the photo in question on page 112 none of the other awnings showing up in the photo have almost the same light color as the Arizona's stern awning below it running around the edge were the railing should be. You can clearly see the edge of the stern awning with a dark sliver just below it and then the same light color as the stern awning runing in the same pattern as the edge of the awning were the rails should be.

If there was nothing there it should all be darker below the edge of the awning.

Just what I'm seeing.

Franz


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2520 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113 ... 126  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 42 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group