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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:58 pm 
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PAscalemod & Rick,

So, how did I miss the name of your intended model (WADLEIGH)? :doh_1: :doh_1: :doh_1:

My initial reply was to allow Rick to come through with his usual detailed descriptions and historical content without my somewhat Peanut Gallery approach to an answer. Having said that I would like to comment further:

The last photo of WADLEIGH posted above shows her in what I could call a "typical" 1st stage modernization of the FLETCHER class DD in that she had a new tripod foremast, (3) 3"/50 cal. secondary armament replacing the old 40mm mounts, a single aft Mk. 56 GFCS but has not had her original 6 tube torpedo mount replaced. She also has lost her original Mt. 53 5"/38 single mount and has gained her two Hedgehog Launchers up forward. At this point in time (photo), the old WWII era rafts were still carried aboard and she's retained both her after depth charge racks and has not received any FANFARE or other towed noise array (ASW gear). These were mods made in the later '50s to many of the FLETCHERS and I can only recall one or two of the San Diego based DDs that did NOT have these aboard in the mid-60s. I also recall one of those ships still had her WWII pole mast and that was a true oddity by that time.

I may have mentioned this in an earlier post on this thread, but when I do get started on my conversion, I will more than likely replace all the decks in the original Revell kit with sheet styrene because trying to sand off all the old WWII stuff does not always come out as expected. I think starting with a clean slate might be the best and easiest way to make this conversion.

Hope this helps,

Hank

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USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:40 pm 
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Hank,

There wasn't a "Standard 4-Gun FLETCHER" directed configuration. The SCB 74A mod was just installing the twin 3-in RFG mounts and associated fire control, planned for ALL USN destroyers. New radars and other equipment were actually Fleet-wide improvements. For destroyers three out of four units were suppose to get SPS-6 air search radar mounted on a tripod mast, set at different frequency ranges, and the remaining destroyer for radar diversity was to use at first a SC-4/5 or SRa or SRb air search radar (installed on either a pole mast or at the standard tripod mast). Initially FLETCHERS had the WWII era SG-1B surface search radar with a new antenna, which was replaced with a SPS-10 radar. Actually not ALL 4-Gun FLETCHERS had tripod foremasts, three units had pole masts (with a SC-4/5 then SR radars) for many years before getting tripod masts. The most common 4-Gun configuration had a SPS-6C radar on a tripod mast and SLR-1 ECM suite.

The 4-Gun FLETCHERS went through several iterations, even in the first few years. Like the first handful of FLETCHERS to be upgraded retained the two torpedo directors in the bridge wings. But, the USN found after inclining that they needed to reduce top-weight and going to one torpedo director on the aft side of the aft stack became the standard location.

Actually, several of the items you listed were not unique to the 4-Gun FLETCHERS. For example, Hedgehogs were "authorized" to be standard on ALL USN destroyers in 1951, but took a couple of years to be installed on all destroyers.

The KW mobilization FLETCHERS actually had an Anti-Torpedo system installed as they were recommissioned, the "FOXER" (FXR) system from WWII used in the Atlantic as a counter to German acoustic torpedoes. This system was quite simple, involving two pieces of metal towed behind the ship, that banged together to attract the acoustic torpedo. See attached images for the system on a CVE in 1944 and as installed on an early FLETCHER. This piece of equipment was considered to be so important that it was one of the very few items actually to be installed during the reactivation process prior to shakedown training and evaluation (up-to-date radios were the other high priority equipment). After that period a destroyer would go through a modification overhaul. The FANFARE system started to replace the FXR system in 1956 on FLETCHERS; the S-Mk6 (single towed device reel) in 1956 and the T-Mk6 (two towed device reel) in 1957. Because units of the class were being decommissioned in 1953, assigned to NRT or decommissioned in 1957, and then almost annually after that, some never did have FANFARE installed.

Image

Image

It wasn't until after the last FLETCHERS to get the SCB 74A mod completed in FY54, did the USN realize that they needed to track two separate FLETCHER "Fleet Destroyer" configurations; 4-Gun and 5-Gun and establish how those two were to be equipped. The 5-Gun FLETCHERS were "suppose" to be the first units decommissioned, but that wasn't always the case. The units in best material condition were retained and the poorest units were selected for reductions in active units or assigned to NRT. Once a destroyer was assigned to NRT, virtually ALL class upgrades ceased to be applied to them.

There were many "across the board" upgrades done. A noticeable one was the enclosing of the open bridge front, first with plexiglass windows, then with a canvas cover, and finally a more permeant roof. In 1966 USS PRESTON (DD-795) was modified with a "German Navy" style bridge. Which was strange, given that the FLETCHERS were slated to be retired in the then near future. Then in about 1962 enough Mk 32 ASW triple torpedo tubes were available, that the surviving 23 FLETCHERS on active duty had them installed.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:20 am 
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GUYS thats quite a response, Im very thankful for this. My idea is the 1951-5 Wadleigh, to narrow things a little. Whichever version will be requiring least amount of changes vs Sullivans? Was there a giant upgrade mid 50s or that was late 50s?

Hank mentioned Revell? What about Revell? Im considering Trumpeter Sullivans as starting point in 1/350. Makes sense? Or your comment re deck applies to the Sullivans also.

Im more of a battleship, royal navy and kriegsmarine experience, so this is a super new thing for me. I have built only one USN destroyer, a Clemson one and in smaller scale, plus a USS Washington and USS Gato. So my experience with USN is limited also.

You guys mentioned RNG mounts? You mean more modern 20mm twin Bofors? Ive seen on pics only 3 of them. I assume no ASW stuff yet will be on the build.

Here is what I would target:

tubs up front, 4 20mms twins?
Image
Image

This in particular may be? No tubs on front around 20mm twins...
Image

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:38 am 
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David P - Yea, 5 tube torpedo mount - my bad!

Rick - I certainly yield to you on historical details & facts concerning the class; my commentary is only from what I saw aboard ship during my tenure in San Diego & Long Beach in the mid-60s - YOU are the "go to guy" for details on the correct research and class details, etc.

PAscalemod - the Revell kit I am going to convert is their 1/144 scale FLETCHER kit. It is now back on the market after a time when it was out of production except for a German version produced by Revell of Germany.

RFG - Rapid Fire Gun (not RNG) - 20mm mounts were removed, not modified to my knowledge. They were way out of date by war's end anyhow!

Hope this helps!

Hank

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:43 pm 
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Pascalemod,

Is there a reason you want to do USS WADLEIGH in particular? Just curious because it is a limited set of configurations.

I already spelled out and posted images of the two configurations that USS WADLEIGH (DD-689) was in during 1951-55. The first image shows her with basically the final WWII configuration she had and was recommissioned with. About the only changes that FLETCHERS had upon being recommissioned in 1951-52 were updating the 20-mm guns from seven single 20-mm (Mk 4 or Mk 10) mounts to six two 20-mm (Mk 24) mounts, unless that is what they already had at the end of the war. These 20-mm guns were all of the hand-operated types. All FLETCHERS were authorized in April 1945 to make the change to six twin 20-mm mounts during their next overhaul period. Two twin 20-mm mounts replaced the single mounts on both sides of the midships main deck locations and two twin mounts replaced the three mounts on the fantail. When they made this change during recommissioning, the USN retained the original bulwark shape for those units that still had single 20-mm mounts prior to recommissioning. The plan was to upgrade ALL the FLETCHER class Fleet Destroyers with twin 3-in Rapid Fire Guns (RFG) mounts when ALL of the 20-mm guns would be removed, so no effort was made to modify the bulwark shape. Actually, it was decided that the 20-mm guns and their ammo weight and the extra crew to man them were not worth the military value and were ordered removed in 1952.

So you have two choices, only one if you don't want to do the more complex 4-Gun mod, during the 1951-55 period.

1. From recommissioning on 3 October 1951 to late 1952 before her overhaul and modification to a "4-Gun" configuration in early 1953;

USS WADLEIGH had five 5-in/38cal mounts, five twin 40-mm mounts (the mounts before the bridge were twin 40-mm mounts, not twin 20mm mounts), two quint Torpedo tube mounts, SC-2/3/4 air search radar (antennas are all basically the same appearance), SG-1 surface search radar, Mk 12/22 fire control radars on the Mk 37 director. She likely retained all six of her twin 20-mm mounts until her early 1953 overhaul. She didn't get the hedgehogs, tripod mast, upgraded radars, until her 1953 overhaul/upgrade.

2. From May 1953 to 1962, USS WADLEIGH was in the 4-Gin configuration. But this would require quite a bit of modification from any "Out-of-the-Box" FLETCHER kit. So I "assume" you don't want to go that route.

If you which to model USS WADLEIGH as she appeared during her first year after recommissioning, then the easiest path would be to use the Trumpeter 1/350 scale THE SULLIVANS kit and use the parts for the five twin 40-mm configuration, not the version parts for the Anti-Kamikaze Mod with quad 40-mm mounts. Use of aftermarket upgrade parts is up to you, but I would suggest at LEAST getting a set of twin 20-mm mounts, Black Cat makes a nice looking 3-D printed version of these (AC-350003a). Trumpeter's 20-mm guns are terrible. Replacing the single 5-in mounts would also be a good idea, Black Cat and Model Monkey make these.

Depending on how much you are interested in absolute accuracy, there are other things that can be added or modified; Black Cat makes a boat winch and bridge equipment not in the Trumpeter kit. The bridge shape isn't exactly accurate shape, but you you aren't concerned, it can be ignored.

The Revell 1/144 scale FLETCHER kit is a Round-Bridge type and a much more extensive list of aftermarket components are needed, starting with getting a Square-Bridge assembly.

Oh, as for the three images you tried to hot link from Navsource (they don't allow hot linking);

Yes the first two images show her as I describe above in likely 1952 and the third shows her early (1953-55) in the 4-Gun configuration prior to ECM gear being added.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:56 pm 
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What is the best starting point kit in 1/350 for DD-557 Johnston?
Thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:07 am 
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I'm not sure what resin 1/350 scale kits that may be available (resin kits come and go out of production and I can't keep track of them). But a quick search says that the Yankee 1/350 scale USS JOHNSTON kit is discontinued, but maybe available somewhere. I have not looked over one of these kits for accuracy, so I don't know if they got the details of SeaTac built units correct.

As for plastic kits suitable, the Trumpeter 1/350 scale USS THE SULLIVANS kit is about your only choice. The Tamiya 1/350 scale kit could be used with more upgrade parts including the bridge and waist 40-mm twin mounts tubs and the lower aft twin 40-mm mount tub (between 53 and 54 mounts). If you want better accuracy for your build, getting 3-D printed parts from like Model Monkey to replaced the nav bridge and pilothouse and a few others items would help in that regard. There are a few other items for the best accuracy that should be modified. USS JOHNSTON was a SeaTac built unit and they had an unique "round-shaped" (forward of the bridge) twin 40-mm mount "tubs". This can be seen from this overhead image that was taken in September 1944. There are other things to look out for, such as floater net basket locations and difference in door locations. Also, the Trumpeter kit only comes with the "D-shaped" MINY style aft (between 53 and 54 mounts) 40-mm mount that needs to be replaced with a 3-D printed "teardrop-shaped" tub. Starship Bob makes these. Black Cat has some excellent weapons and other small parts including 5-in mounts, to add to the model. Whether you use aftermarket parts or not is dependent on how accurate you wish to be and if you are satisfied with the kit parts.

Image


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:29 pm 
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Erick, thanks a lot for your comprehensive and very helpful reply.
What literature would you suggest as a reference for Fletcher class in general?

Btw., while I am all the way in 1/350 scale I had a chance to get Revell Fletcher Platinum Edition in 1/144 at such a great price ($70 with shipping included) that I could not resist temptation.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:48 pm 
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Zacharias,

You may have gotten the 1/144 scale Revell kit at a good price, but by the time you procure (or scratch make) the parts (3-D printed parts in 1/144 scale aren't cheap) needed to convert the kit to USS JOHNSTON, you will have paid more than buying a Trumpeter 1/350 THE SULLIVANS kit and the cheaper parts available.

You could use the Revell kit for another subject requiring less work.

As for FLETCHER class references, not to blow my own horn too much. :cool_1: You may consider getting these books;

... http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/bo ... Fletch.htm ...

... http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/bo ... Fletch.htm ...

From Classic Warships Publications ... http://www.classicwarships.com/warship_ ... orial.html ...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:10 pm 
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Rick,
Sorry for confusion, it was not my intention to turn Revell 1/144 Fletcher into USS JOHNSTON, I am aware that would mean a lot of surgery that I am not willing nor capable of. :)
Trumpeter 1/350 THE SULLIVANS kit should fit my USS JOHNSTON project, just as you suggested.
I just pulled a trigger on Revell 1/144 Fletcher as I like Fletcher class destroyers, it seems to me as a decent kit, that Platinum edition includes turned barrels and decent PE set, and all that at fair price.

Thanks for suggestion re. books, will try to get them while still available, as so many of those CLASSIC WARSHIPS PUBLISHING titles are already out of print.
Why they do not reprint all those obviously very popular OOP titles?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:31 pm 
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New to the forum.

Currently building "The Sullivans" DD-537 (1:96 scale) and looking for an image of the wood shore stowage that was situated at the base of Stack#1. Looking to scratch build but not sure of its' design/setup. Any and all help appreciated.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:50 pm 
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Before I go looking, for what time period/configuration of USS THE SULLIVANS (DD-537) are you modeling?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:45 pm 
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end of war- 1945

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:34 pm 
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Hello Guys,

I have a question about John Robert Barrette's FLETCHER Cutaway drawings. Is there anybody among you who knows where these drawings are still available ?? I would be very interested in a cutaway drawing of the FLETCHER Class. I am aware that J.R. Barrett past away several years ago, and since that time the drawings are not available anymore, at least I cannot find them anymore, maybe one of you does have excess to them !
Hope someone can help me.

Regards.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:25 am 
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EOC,

I don't have similar images for THE SULLIVANS in this area taken from overhead at MINY, because they had yet to load shoring lumber onboard. But, some of her sister units also at MINY do show shoring lumber stowed in that area. The amber appears to be strapped together for easier loading and more secure during stowing. It doesn't appear to be stowed in a "standard" way, so you likely could copy these images as examples.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:41 am 
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Hi, everyone. I'm currently trying to build the Trumpeter Sullivans kit as the USS Heermann as she would have appeared off Leyte in October 1944. This will be a full-hull build on a display stand. I've got Warship Pictorials - Round bridge Fletchers in hand and am awaiting the Square Bridge volume from Sprue Brothers. First off, Rick, your work is wonderful and a truly great reference for those of us trying to recreate these ships. I've learned a ton from the RB edition and I'm looking forward to getting the SB volume in hand. Thanks for your efforts!!

That said, I've got the L'Arsenal and Toms Modelworks PE sets to go along with the base kit. I've scratch-built the teardrop 40mm aft gun tub, I've added hawseholes and bollards (I think the correct term) in the proper places, scratch anchor chains, and I've added a sonar dome. I've also sanded off the anti-slip walkway and tweaked the shape of the gun director platform on the rear funnel. At this point, I'm building her with the SC2 radar, but without the Mk22 height finder, based on this pic from navsource: http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0553204.jpg

I've scoured the web and this forum for pics of the Heermann and have found a decent number of useful shots. But, I'm not an expert on Fletchers, so I'm curious if there's any other major items I need to be aware of before I make too much progress. At this point, the hull is the only thing permanently attached. The rest is dry fit, so I have room to tweak.

Also, does anyone have any recommendations on how to recreate the non-slip walkway? I was thinking of small strips of Tamiya tape, but there really shouldn't be any relief at this scale as the real things were just painted on.

Edit: I see that I'll have to scratch-build a torpedo crane next to the forward stack, and I'm guessing that means I can omit part number A4, which appears to be a different style torpedo crane mounted on the walkway between the aft and midship deckhouses. (?)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:05 pm 
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Gewehr_43,

First off I would suggest holding off until you get the Square-Bridge FLETCHER book before you permanently "glue" anything in place.

In the book, I grouped the Square-Bridge FLETCHERS by the builders and then configurations, instead as in the Round-Bridge book by configurations, because almost all the Square-Bridge units were completed to the five twin 40-mm mounts configuration or were modified to it after shakedown. At this point in the construction program, each builder ended up with unique configuration details to bulwarks and location of things like rafts. Anyway, USS HEERMANN (DD-532) was one of the numerous Beth-SF built units and there are quite a few detail shots of units built at this yard, but unfortunately none specifically of USS HEERMANN. But, the units built at Beth-SF had some unique features common to all units built after the first three (DD-526 through 528), images of some sisters built near her order in the construction program should provide needed details. One feature that stands out, is a "rub stake" on the hull below the waist twin 40-mm mounts. Only Beth-SF and Beth-SP built units or modified in their yards, had this feature. Attached is a portside image of USS HEERMANN prior to the Philippines Campaign.

Image

First, I'm not sure "how accurate and exact" you plan to be with your build? Because, I could recommend some aftermarket replacements for the Trumpeter kit. If you are going for the "as accurate as can be afforded" :smallsmile: , then here are some suggestions. The prime one would be a 3-D printed Square-Bridge from Model Monkey. The navigation bridge shape on the Trumpeter kit is the wrong shape at the front edge. You could modify the kit's bridge to the correct shape as an alternative. Replacing weapons with better items would be nice as well. The 5-in gun mounts can be replaced with 3-D printed ones.

USS HEERMANN correctly was equipped with a SC-2 Air Search Radar. She had the Mk 4 Fire Control Radar on her Mk 37 director, not the Mk 12. Many of the PE sets out there have a common antenna for both the Mk 4 and Mk 12 radars, but they were different in size and shape. Some sets have these antennas way off too big in scale. Tom's is correcting this in future PE sets and Black Cat 3-D printed several versions of the Mk 37 director with a Mk 4 radar or with a Mk 12 radar printed on the directors. Both firms from original drawings.

As for Torpedo Cranes, the five twin 40-mm configured FLETCHERS, had two torpedo cranes; one forward by the forward stack and one aft on the elevated walkway. The Trumpeter kit has mistakenly omitted the forward crane from their kit for the five twin 40-mm configuration option. The aft torpedo crane (part A4) was on the HEERMANN. The aft crane was a telescopic crane that could be lowered when not in use. The Forward Crane, was a fixed height unit. OH ... by the way, do NOT use part A10. Trumpeter has used a Paravane in the location where a boat winch should be located on their model. Again this is an item that can be gotten aftermarket, 3-d printed or otherwise. Their K-Gun depth charge throwers reloads need PE framing wrapped over them to represent the reload racks used.

The anti-skid walkways were mostly separate series of rectangular shaped mat like material cemented to the deck. On other ships a painted on or a roll of material was used. Frankly I can't tell from photos which type was used on the Beth-SF built units. But, it does appear that they used the "painted-on" type. Plus it appears that they were pretty liberal its application with upper decks almost completely covered. The best way to represent the non-skid areas would be to use a slightly different shade of paint or one more flat. Because it was rough, it appeared more "flat" than just painted steel deck and stayed "darker" that the painted steel decks after aging.

Again, if you can use or do whatever you like and can afford for your build.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:01 am 
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Rick,

Great information. Thank you for the very detailed reply; I really appreciate it. The good news is, nothing but the hull is glued together at this point. The deckhouses and bridge structures are built, but each deck is separate at this point. I see the rub stake now and, despite studying that very photo quite a bit, missed it in the review. I'll figure out a way to scratch that up, but it shouldn't be too hard. Regarding the 3D printed bridge, I assume you're referring to this one? https://www.model-monkey.com/product-pa ... steel-type Six bucks seems reasonable. The L'Arsenal kit comes with resin gun turrets, though I noticed that none of them have the armored sight protector (I think) on them, so I'll have to scratch that for the fore and aft guns. Any chance you have drawings for the forward torpedo crane? I was considering getting plans from floatingdrydock.com but their site is woefully out of date and has a distinct out-of-business vibe to it.

Anyway, to answer your question, I'm going for "pretty close to accurate" for this build. As long as I'm say 80% faithful to what appears in the picture you posted, I'll be thrilled. This is only my 3rd ship model, so I'm still learning the ropes.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:09 am 
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Yes that is the pilothouse, but you will need the navigation bridge as well ... https://www.model-monkey.com/product-pa ... ck-and-cic ... that was the kit part that was off in shape.

There were two types of forward torpedo tube cranes. The early type was the original one arm crane located abreast stack #2 before the waist twin 40-mm mounts were installed, that was relocated forward and the telescopic crane installed aft. However, the majority of Square-Bridge units and the Beth-SF class units had the second type that basically was built to the same design as the telescopic crane except that it was fixed in height. Attached is an image of the telescopic crane with a few dimensions from the Floating Drydock FLETCHER CLASS PLANS BOOK. A side note, Floating Drydock has been sold to another person, base in Maryland, who is still trying to sort through the stuff he acquired. Plus a couple of drawings from the BIW FLETCHER CLASS ENGINEERING DRAWINGS DVD. I couldn't locate a dimensioned drawing of the forward crane in the BIW drawings, but I did locate an Assembly drawing showing the installation. It appears that the arms of the crane were "similar in design" to the telescopic crane arms, except that one arm was longer. See image onboard USS HAZELWOOD, sister to USS HEERMANN.

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I asked what your goal for your build as to accuracy because I didn't want to drive you down a path of replacing every part except for the hull and main deck. :big_grin:

Good luck on your build and have fun. Don't push accuracy beyond enjoying the build.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:57 am 
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Once again, thank you. That is hugely helpful. I just ordered both pilot house and navigation bridge (I'm still learning my naval terminology. ;) ), so those should be here soon. Sounds like the SB volume of your book has arrived at my office. I will swing by there today to pick it up.

I think you "get" where I'm looking to go with this build. :) I've done enough Trumpeter aircraft models to know that they tend to follow a "close enough" engineering philosophy... such that making a truly accurate model is not worth the effort. As long as 98% of the world will look at it and say, "yep, looks like the Heermann," I'll be happy.

Here's where she's at right now.
Image

The anchor chain is a little overscale, but it's the best I can do at the moment. Nearly everything is still dry fit save for the aft 20mm gun tub. I removed nearly all molded-on detail so that I can add it back with brass fittings from the PE sets I have. The resin 40mm guns, 5" guns, gun directors, whaleboats, and liferafts are all built, but not stuck on yet. The L'Arsenal 5" mounts have the ladder on the rear of the turret. I kinda feel like that's right for the period I'm representing, as all shots I've found of her with the ladder on the side of the turret appear to be in her post-refit camo scheme.


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