The Ship Model Forum

All the Kents` had timber planking foc`s`les `as built`forward of the breakwater.
As with Kent herself, it is likely the plating was installed in 37/38 refit.
Not all the Kents` had their foc`s`le plated.

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Amen dico tibi, hodie mecum eris in paradiso (Lk 23,43).

Willie:

According to the IWM, from whence the film was obtained, July-August 1939. See my post on the top of the previous page.

Enjoy!

Mike E.

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Mike E.

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Amen dico tibi, hodie mecum eris in paradiso (Lk 23,43).

All:

Has anyone attempted a color callout for HMS Norfolk in her late '41 -early '43 camouflage scheme depicted here?

http://www.steelnavy.com/images/ISWNorf ... 7photo.JPG

And on the back cover of Alan Raven's RN Camouflage Vol. 2 here:

http://www.internetmodeler.com/2001/may ... _Camo2.jpg

Looks like AP507C and perhaps MS2 and MS3 or B5?

Would anyone have a better idea?

Please advise.

Thanks!

Mike E.

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Mike E.

Hey Mike,

David Hogue indeed did such an attempt at Norfolk in scale 1:350: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/ca/hms/Norfolk-350-dh/index.htm
Unfortunatly he doesn't call out the colors he used, but you could try and ask him?

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"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023

Thanks Maarten! Good idea... I have long admired Dave’s model of Norfolk.

But I was also hoping that some of the camouflage mavens like Alan Raven and Jamie Duff and Richard Dennis might sound off.

Best,

Mike E.

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Mike E.

Hi Mike,

With all these things it is so difficult to tell from black and white images. The gaps between the camo colours is quite small and in differing lights can change quite a bit.

There is a document in existance that contains observation reports by camo officers of ships in Scapa Flow in July 42, unfortunately as with all these things it gives us a hint here and there, but never says "HMS so and so had these paints"!

Norfolk is in there, MS1 is mentioned as is MS4, and in the general report there is a column that is headed 'distance at which blue/B5 shows as blue' and in that column Norfolk has 1 nautical mile written.

Im sorry I cant help more and I know this doesn't really help much, but it seems to be a four paint scheme on Norfolk and the report only gives us two and a possible third with B5. What the fourth is I'm not sure, it would depend on whether we think the fourth tone is darker or lighter than the B5, again hard to judge!

Sorry I can't be of more help, I'm sure when Richard sees this his input will be of much more help!

Best wishes
Cag.

Morning all,

We do have this which is from a short cine reel. Alan Raven's 1942 book back cover does state that the camouflage was kept with only small changes, but the illustration does appear to show B6. The second lightest tone (large panel on hull below bridge and forward funnel) looks a lot like MS3 to me, but I'd question where the MS4 is alleged to be. Given that the lightest tone blends well into the snowy background, I personally would have assumed that was 507C at the lightest and probably MS4A.



The B5 is on the prow - the second darkest tone, although it does look a little washed out here but it usually does in cine film. The MS1 should be fairly obvious.

_________________
James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151

Hi All

Wow thanks for that Jamie! Ive not seen those images before but that might solve it, in the files MS1 and MS4 are definitely mentioned, (it's in RE/CAM No 6 part of HO 217/7.

So perhaps we see a scheme in dark to light MS1, B5, MS4 and 507c?

Perhaps Norfolk could be another scheme you can do another beautiful cad drawing for?

Best wishes
Cag.

Dear Cag, James:

Thanks SO MUCH to both of you for this... this is why I love this site!!!

This is invaluable!!!

Many thanks!

And happy holidays to all!

Yours truly,

Mike E.

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Mike E.

Well, my guess, based on CaG's input, Jame's screen grabs, and Alan Raven's published artwork (thanks all!), is the following:

MS1, MS3 (or MS4), B5, and AP507C or MS4a.

MS1 and B5 seem quite likely. One of the colors looks to my eyes like gray-green, hence the MS3 (though CAG says the written records mention MS4--so maybe that is the right color....).

And the light gray is pretty darn light, so I would vote for MS4a over AP507C--but it is hard to judge.

At any rate, unless we find documents that clarify the matter, no one can disprove these choices, methinks... or am I wrong?

If anyone has any additional thoughts, your comments are welcome!

Happy New Year all!!!

Best,

Mike E.

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Mike E.

Hi Mike,

Just giving my opinion - I concur with your ideas and my choices would be:

MS1, B5, MS4 and MS4A.

MS4 rather than MS3 as that is documented as Cag said, rather than trying to figure out a precise colour from a very old colour photo. (e.g. B5 is far bluer than the photos suggest!).

MS4A because the contrast between it and MS4 is far greater than for MS4 vs. 507C.

A similar (or the same if, as I believe, MS1 was used rather than 507A) combination was used on Arethusa 1942 . With the real B5, you'll have a truly colourful result! (See pic of my Arethusa class below.) Enjoy your build!

Happy holidays and all the best for 2020.

Paul

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Hard a starboard.......Shoot!

Hi All

Hi Paul, very lovely models!

Hi Mike, if you're worried I'd await Jamie or Richards input, I was lucky enough to be part of the group that went through the RN paints/schemes and in spite of my very questionable contributions I can assure you they are a very knowledgeable group and still managed to sort it all out! But I can tell you all five of us found it hard sometimes to distinguish some tones!

507c and MS4a are quite close in tone, 507c has an official 45% reflectance (although it was usually around 42% just to make it harder for everyone) and MS4a was about 55%. So as you can imagine they are hard to tell apart in old images, HMS Chiddingfold, a hunt class, has both paints on her bow and in some images where the light and direction were acute, the demarcation line is, well let's say, sometimes quite hard to make out! So for me MS4a and 507c are very good options for the lightest colour.

B5 was around 15% and just to be awkward can look dark or conversely quite light in black and white images, depending on the light source and direction. MS4 can also show lighter and darker (Think of HMS KGV Anson and Howe in the multi tone camo and how dark MS4 can appear when close the 507c and B5 on the starboard bow) it depends which paint is next to it or surrounds it, MS4a will make MS4 appear darker where as MS1 makes it look lighter.

The trouble is some wonderful person at the Admiralty decided that as part of a clear up all info on schemes was destroyed so we have what we have. The image Jamie posted was excellent and I'm sure your interpretation of the image on your model will look just as excellent. Part of the fun of all this camouflage malarkey is having these discussions as every ones opinion grows the collective knowledge.

My humble advice is to try a small sketch, see if MS3 looks better, how do the B5 and MS3 or 4 look against 507c or MS4a? Which combination looks like the colour image? Once you have something that you think is close to the colour images post it, we will all still be here and very happy to help, it's a good forum community.

I'm sorry I cant be of more constructive help, I know what it's like to wonder about a scheme wanting to get it as accurate as possible, if you decide on the quick sketch or not, I'm sure more advice will be forthcoming and your model will look magnificent.

Best wishes
Cag.

Hi All

Just posted a long winded reply but by the time I'd submitted it my log in had expired so it will appear, at some point....I hope......once checked by a moderator!

Very humble apologies,
Best wishes
Cag
Edit: Many thanks to the moderators lost post is now above
Cag.

Paul:

Are those Colourcoat paints you used on the Arethusa build above? And if so, which colors did you use?

Please advise... looks great!

Thanks for posting!

Mike E.

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Mike E.

Hi Mike,

Only one of the paints used is an authentic Colourcoat - and that's the old WEM MS1 which I think is pretty good for that dark colour. The others are very close matches to current Colourcoats (MS4A, MS4 and B5) since I can't access them too readily from here in Jamaica. (I have some Colourcoat painted chips sent to me by a good friend in the UK, allowing me to match them as closely as I can with what I have - mix and match if necessary.)

For MS4A I used True North's 507C which is a far closer match for MS4A than the real 507C.

For MS4, if I recall correctly, I used Model Masters Light Sea Grey (will double check later when I get home) and for B5, it wasn't a true model paint, but an artist-type Pebeo acrylic I got locally that is a virtually perfect match. It wasn't ideal for the purpose, but it did the job.

If I could get the actual current Colourcoats, I would. Oh for the good ole days days when you could just buy online and they arrive by mail - safely - in 1 week!

(And BTW for the other 3, Galatea is in WEM Colourcoat Mountbatten Pink, Penelope is True North 507C (too light), and Aurora is in the old WEM G45 and B20 (built before the new info was out).

Hope that helps. But as Cag said, wait and see if there are more ideas from his colleagues.

Thanks to you both for your kind comments!

Paul

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Hard a starboard.......Shoot!

Yup, that's confirmed.

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Hard a starboard.......Shoot!

Greetings to all County-class cruiser fans! I received the HMS Norfolk 1942 (1/700 Aoshima) kit from the Hobby Search store just before the end of 2019. I ordered a set of photo-etched parts and a wooden deck for this model, as offered by a link in the e-shop. Here, however, after unpacking the package, awaited an unpleasant surprise. This upgrade set is designed for HMS Norfolk at the time of the Battle of the North Cape, so after her extensive refit, and e.g. no catapult is included.



However, I´m not writing this post to complain, I would rather like to reopen the topic of this ship ´s paint scheme in 1942. Her main job in 1942, besides a brief episode in the Mediterranean, was escorting convoys to Russia. There is a post by Roger Torgeson on page 3 of this thread, who asked this same question. Just like him, I´ve got the Warship Perspectives Camouflage Volume Two: Royal Navy 1942 by Alan Raven, but only starboard and port sides are shown there without exact paint specifications. The other book I´ve got is the British and Commonwealth WARSHIP CAMOUFLAGE of WWII volume 3, but it does not mention this ship´s scheme at all. Roger Torgeson's contribution is dated 2008 and at that time no one knew the answer. Would anyone have any new information about the paint scheme of this famous ship? With the release of this new kit I'd certainly not be the only one interested.



Thanks in advance for your replies.

Hi,

Unfortunately HMS Norfolk is very difficult. There are not enough good quality photographs of her, and in discussion with dick, elcejay, cag and medway08 it was pointed out by dick that we can see enough to acknowledge that the same basic scheme was on the ship for a rather long time but that there are differences in shape and placement of some panels of camouflage. Dick has identified at least 3 basic phases of evolution but there isn't enough information to accurately map it.

We have an incomplete written list of paints used at one particular point in time in the middle of this long period, as well as some colour footage from several months later of only the port side which does not quite reconcile intuitively with the written account. Due to the confirmed but incomplete changes to the camouflage design, a change in one or more paint colours cannot be ruled out either.

We could possibly counsel on which paints we'd use to either resemble some photographs, and/or the written account or the colour footage, but not all at the same time and even then it would come with a big government health warning. I don't think any of the aforementioned, including myself, would be so bold as to state that we have a reasonably robust argument in favour of any particular camouflage design for HMS Norfolk during her period of having a disruptive pattern camouflage scheme. It's just too easy to pick holes in any given suggestion such that a fair degree of doubt remains.

As always, it seems easier to say what it isn't than what it is.

_________________
James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151