Calling all Fletcher-class (DD-445) fans

[ModelMonkey]

Fletcher class site:

http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletcherclass/

[Francisco P. de Nanclares]

Hi all. I am currently building a WWI battleship but my next project will be most probably the 1/350 tamiya Fletcher which I am going to build as the Spanish Navy D21 Lepanto. She was the round bridge, 5 5inches. Amazingly enough, I have been unable to find info on the refit they undertook already under the Spanish flag. I know the mas was changed for a tripod one, radars and FCS (got pics of both) and one or both of the torpedo launchers were removed. I think this refit followed US Navy suit, so most probably the five Spanish destroyers had the same outfit as the American Fletchers.

What I am looking for is exactly what was fitted in lieu of the torpedo launchers.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[ModelMonkey]

Francisco, at risk of telling you something you already know,

Lepanto was originally USS Capps DD-550. Here's a link to the history of the ship and the man for whom it was named:
http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/c3/capps.htm

Here's a World War II photo of her:
http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... ps_01.html

As Lepanto:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/550.htm

Hope this helps!

[Francisco P. de Nanclares]

Thanks Steve for your help. It helps me a lot. I didn�t know she was not fitted with the torpedo launchers while under US flag, so she kept the same outfit until her scrapping.

[DIBBER27]

O'Bannon AA Nov 42

I'm building a Tamayia 1/350 Fletcher. I'm baseing it on the O'Bannon during the battle for Guadalcanal November 42.

I am trying to find out if she still had her original 1.1 quad. Anybody know the answer or where I can find out.

Thanks
Bob

[Harry @ BFM]

you might want to take a look at: page 18, in
Warship Perspectives
Fletcher, Gearing, & Summers
by Jeff Herne

[Rick E Davis]

The O'Bannon, Nicholas and Chevalier all went off to the Pacific carrying the quad 1.1" gun. The Chevalier was lost with this weapon, having never been equiped with any 40mm guns. The O'Bannon and Nicholas kept the quad 1.1" gun mtg until late 1943 when they were refitted with the then standard 5 twin 40mm AA configuration. They got plus-ups of 20mm singles while in the Pacific with the quad 1.1" ... one on top of the pilot house and three on the stern without the benefit of a gun tub. This was besides the original 6 20mm they had at commissioning.

[DIBBER27]

Thanks Rick. Luckly Tamayia gives you 10 20mm. The ones on the stern were they in the same postion as ships with the tubs?

Bob

[Rick E Davis]

I can not tell for sure (I have never seen a direct overhead photo), but they appear to be in the same general locations. Go to the destroyerhistory.org website and poke around for info and photos of these ships (they have individual pages with many links to other pages for the O'Bannon and Nicholas). An example is this broadside shot of the O'Bannon ... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... dside.html ... you can almost make out the 20mm guns on the stern. For onboard shots and other perspectives, there are a series of photos onboard the Nicholas which SHOULD be the same or nearly so to the O'Bannon. This page has thumbnail photos of the series ... http://www.ussnicholas.org/43ob_thumbs.html ... look them over and take in some neat shots. The 20mm guns can be seen in the stern "All Hands" shots and in other views as well.

[Rick E Davis]

I realized that I should have mentioned that I have not seen where anyone has a firm date as to when the extra 4-20mm guns were added. I don't know if they were there in Nov 1942 if that is when you are trying to model the O'Bannon. Apparently the "Cactus Tincan" fleet were repainted to MS-21 just before the battle in late November (reported as being done the first week of November). The photos available with good dates show them onboard at least by March 1943.

[DIBBER27]

I realized that I should have mentioned that I have not seen where anyone has a firm date as to when the extra 4-20mm guns were added. I don't know if they were there in Nov 1942 if that is when you are trying to model the O'Bannon. Apparently the "Cactus Tincan" fleet were repainted to MS-21 just before the battle in late November (reported as being done the first week of November). The photos available with good dates show them onboard at least by March 1943.

I know the original story that got me interested in building the O'Bannon was in an old Sea Classics. It listed the armament as 6 20mm. But the issue is about the 100th anniversary of the destroyer. They say the Fletcher class was the first class with twin rudders. As far as i know they all only had one so i don't put much stock in what they say. I will have to re-think my paint plan I was going to go with the blotch pattern.

[Ron Smith]

Uh, no. Absolutely no.

The mod after WW.II made the rudder area much larger. That's the only difference in 445 class rudders.

I thought the last 4 Fletchers were built with twin rudders?

Timmy and Sean are correct, between 3 and 5 Fletchers were built with twin rudders. There's enough textual reference to them and there are photos of them being built; that's built, not rebuilt or refitted. I don't have time to dig them all up but he who stated flatly it never happened can now do his due diligence and do some research to prove his incorrect assetion.

[Rick E Davis]

The references I have seen (and I can't find the book right now with the reason why ... I thought it was in Friedman's book but I can't find it there) said that the last 4 or 6 Fletcher's built at Todd's Seattle yards (DD799-804 or 801-804), got the twin rudders. These were some of the last Fletcher's to be completed, but why only that yard got the OK to do this mod that was implemented on the following Sumner's? The Sumner's were already coming off the production line by the time these Fletcher's were commissioned. The Destroyer History Org website says that the last 4 (DD801-804) were the only Fletcher's built with twin rudders. Right how I'm not sure which of these references is correct. The problems experienced by the Fletcher's with a wide turn radius during the war was corrected with an enlarged rudder installed on units recommissioned for the Korean War.


Edit by Timmy C on Feb. 21, 2010: For those interested in more recent information regarding twin rudder Fletcher possibilities, please see Rick E. Davis' post on page 44: viewtopic.php?f=49&t=8105&start=655

[Guest]

DD's 800 Porter, 801 Colhoun, 802 Gregory, 803 Little and 804 Rooks all had twin rudders and were square bridge Fletchers commissioned between 06/24/1944 and 10/02/1944.

[largeallan]

I've started building the tamiya fletcher too.....I was wondering if there's a UK based manufacturer/dealer for PE to match this kit?......I see some US based ones, but not UK

not that that's a HUGE problem, I'm just thinking delivery time.

[Cadman]

Well, it looks like Rick was right all along. The O'Bannon was NOT in Ms-12 mod during the Guadalcanal battles. Ron Smith was kind enough to supply me with photo's that clearly show the O'Bannon in drydock, complete with damaged bow, and she definitely bear no trace of anything but 5N on the hull. The upper works appears to be in 5N as well. The only trace of another color is some lighter gray on the forward 20 mm guns shields.

In those damage report documents there is a reference to the 1.1 director platforms. Would this be evidence that she still had her 1.1 gun?

[Cadman]

Ron also included three high res photo's that are also on the DestroyerHistory.org site.

These are captioned on that site as camo being painted. From the photo's I have the 5-N looks much newer than the lighter gray color. In addition there are stains and streaks on the gray, that don't appear to be on the 5-N. Comments?

[Rick E Davis]

I noticed that the Nicholas and O'Bannon still had the 1.1" quad about 30 years ago at the Navy Historical Center. I spent a lot of time trying to find out when they got 40mm guns because I couldn't believe they went to war with them. I figured that they just HAD to have been modified as had the Federal built Fletcher's. I think this photo is pretty clear that the O'Bannon had the 1.1" quad in 1943 ... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... dside.html ... although it isn't clear enough to plainly see the quad gun. The following photo is a little better ... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... 43_02.html An onboard photo on sister ship Nicholas is pretty firm evidence, to me anyway, ... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... re_01.html ... you can't see the full 1.1" mtg, but look at the gun sights. Compare to photos of 1.1" quad mtg and 40mm twin mtg ... that is a 1.1" quad mtg. Sorry I can't lay my hands on a web photo of a quad 1.1" on a Fletcher class that shows this sight right now (they all seem to have a cover over them), but there is a view on a DE that I found at this site ... http://www.sunwestmonograms.com//wiseman/armament.htm ... see the 5th photo down. I couldn't find any photos of any of the first three Bath built Fletcher's having 40mm until the Nicholas and O'Bannon returned to the West Coast in late 1943 and were upgraded to the 5 twin 40mm standard (done in Jan 1944). The Mare Island photos clearly are marked showing the areas modified and all five twin 40mm locations are marked ... go to Navsource's website for the series of Mare Island photos. As for the Camo ... I wasn't really interested in documenting these ships paint schemes at the time. I just remember looking at all these photos taken in the SW Pacific and not being able to see much detail because they were ALL painted in this dark solid color. How for a discussion on which Fletcher's got the 14-40mm Emergency mod in 1945 ... hint Friedman didn't publish an entirely accurate list.

[Ron Smith]

Well, it looks like Rick was right all along. The O'Bannon was NOT in Ms-12 mod during the Guadalcanal battles. Ron Smith was kind enough to supply me with photo's that clearly show the O'Bannon in drydock, complete with damaged bow, and she definitely bear no trace of anything but 5N on the hull. The upper works appears to be in 5N as well. The only trace of another color is some lighter gray on the forward 20 mm guns shields.

In those damage report documents there is a reference to the 1.1 director platforms. Would this be evidence that she still had her 1.1 gun?

I'd say if they mention the 1.1" director she still has the mounts. The apparent lighter grey looks to me like an effect of the light angle on the angled 20mm shields and Mk37 director face. The hull shows some chalking so the paint is pretty oxidized and the angled faces are going to reflect a little differently.

[Ron Smith]

Ron also included three high res photo's that are also on the DestroyerHistory.org site.

These are captioned on that site as camo being painted. From the photo's I have the 5-N looks much newer than the lighter gray color. In addition there are stains and streaks on the gray, that don't appear to be on the 5-N. Comments?

Unfortunately most of the Bath built DD's aren't well represented at NARA or NHC for this type of photo, prevailing thought in research and Archives is Bath still has the photos. If you'll look at the comments on the photos you'll see they appear to be handwritten, they are on the negatives. That's a sure sign of them being BuShips/BuC&R official contract documents so you can trust the date. Later in the war they applied a piece of tape that was typed on, typical of Mare Island photos.

Both ships probably went out on their builder's trials in overall grey then came back in to Bath for final fitting and got Ms12mod before military trials. Given the inclining experiment note on some of the photos I'd guess we're look at post-military trials and prepping to join their fleet units for training before being sent to the Pacific. This is not an uncommon sequence in 1942 and we know BB-56 Washington did not perform inclining experiments until she got to Hvalfjord, Iceland on the way to Scapa Flow. I'd say they are painting into camo and Tim if you zoom in on the guys in the boat you can see streaking on the 5-N below the grey patches but you can also see where they're literally brushing new paint over both the grey and the blue. You may have just inadvertently discovered the date and location O'Bannon painted into Ms21.