The Ship Model Forum

Hello All,

Hi KevinD yes it is a bit of a difficult path, as EJ says you have to do a lot of searching, sometimes it's better to Google what your searching for and follow the link!

I think there's a few DoY plans, the usual profile, the two fore and aft sectional drawings, the bridges are two plans and then there are the six decks, the aircraft arrangements, and I think there are two that show magazine flooding and I think it's hydraulic supply but it's all from memory.

The National Archives and the NMM also have the large in size ships books which hold a lot of technical details, how many boiler tubes fitted, sizes and when replaced etc, electrical components, cranes, well the list goes on, even the mapping of the turning circles.

The UK National Archives also have the 14 inch, 5.25 inch, and pom pom handbooks that have a wealth of detail with great drawings of guns and mounts, but their website is easier to work through.

Hi Pascalemod, it does look one tone, but then in other images you can just (only just!) make out a pattern on the upper wing surfaces etc. I'm still trying to find out what aircraft PoW had early on, her logs gives serial numbers for post Bismarck refit Walrus, IIRC they began with an R, but no early details, usually just "Aircraft embarked" or "Aircraft lowered" which is a pain.

From images I think the one seen has an L serial number. But I'll keep looking, love your model by the way!

Best wishes
Cag.

Thank you, this is helpful Cag.

As Im nearing the completion of 1941 April PoW in 1/700 here is the summary of finding that I hope are useful for others (and few still unclear):

1) There was a small radar in a tub between HACS directors - something T-shaped for our small scale is fine. Kit from Flyhawk leaves an empty platform without lantern- that is wrong, I see people do this on few builds.
2) Paravane boot - YES. must be added
3) Anchors - all three
4) Paint - 507B or A, doesn't matter, medium to dark bluish grey paint that is not available from Tamiya (albeit for my build Im using XF66 that Hood Association recommended for Hood and it seems to work OK)
5) Walrus - green and grey colors, 2 Walrus planes (not 4! despite plans) were carried. Halves of its wings were stored on hangar so if modeling hangar open - good to add those on the side
6) Prince of Wales name letters on stern need to be there but are never there from any of the kit makers it seems. sad.

What still remains unclear:
7) Is it acceptable to cover all boats that were rowed with tarp? Is it acceptable to cover with tarp motor launches (various)?
8.) Were decks painted grey or scrubbed clean for April-May 1941 period? Some photos show decks uniformly clean in Ravens book, same as turrets and it is the biggest argument not to leave them natural color. (SEE ATTACHED PICS)
9) Did the ship's crest got painted over in grey or was in white-red?
10) Color of shafts on props - gold or steel or painted grey?
11) Motor Launches: were they blue with white bottom or all grey?


As I finalize all these I think we need to start updating this CASF thread to avoid same questions asked and reasked.

_________________
- @Shipific on IG
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1) There was a small radar in a tub between HACS directors - something T-shaped for our small scale is fine. Kit from Flyhawk leaves an empty platform without lantern- that is wrong, I see people do this on few builds.

The as-fitted drawings claim a pompom director, but nothing to see here. There is no radar there for the period you are building the model. Might be a UP sight (of which there is no info)

5) Walrus - green and grey colors, 2 Walrus planes (not 4! despite plans) were carried. Halves of its wings were stored on hangar so if modeling hangar open - good to add those on the side

I have a few of the IWM images at high res but I cannot make out any camo on the upper surface. There is a difference between upper/lower half of the plane, most notably visible on the engine cowling. But then IWM_A 4231 shows camo and a different roundel too.

What still remains unclear:
6) Motor Launches: were they blue with white bottom or all grey?

Complicated. Some pics some an all-grey 25 FMB (IWM_A 3868). (IWM_A 3900 & IWM_A 3898) suggest a blue + white 45 FMB. After the 45ft FMB were replaced by the 35 FMB it is mainly white upperworks. Images of KGV from the same period show some boats with a notably darker hull (and covered upperworks), sometimes same as hull colour (no white upeprworks). I cannot be very more helpful at the moment... I think I need more footage

7) Is it acceptable to cover all boats that were rowed with tarp? Is it acceptable to cover with tarp motor launches (various)?

Actually boats were typically covered but I think it's acceptable to not cover them... makes for a more interesting model.

Were decks painted grey or scrubbed clean for April-May 1941 period? Some photos show decks uniformly clean in Ravens book, same as turrets and it is the biggest argument not to leave them natural color.

Scrubbed.

9) Did the ship's crest got painted over in grey or was in white-red?

No idea!

10) Color of shafts on props - gold or steel or painted grey?

Never gold. Pics of her in drydock shows the same contrast as the hull colour; which makes sense as shafts were often painted with hull colour, so red.

11) name plaque on the stern - Prince of Wales - was it there? Was it there but painted? Was it removed?

The name on the hull was letters only on the stern during launch but covered during fitting out and afterwards (see e.g., IWM A 9409 with a strip where the name was during launch). Might have been covered? Never noticed this before...

The problem is twofold:

1) Time (and effort) - the moderators have to have the time an put in the effort to clean up a topic. That's why we ask people not to post WIP pics in the
2) Time (and effort) - new folks are not reading through an entire topic to see if their question was already answered.

Case in point: I spent 2+ hours last week wading through another CASF thread, though I did find the answer I was looking for. Eventually. Not everyone is willing to do that.

_________________
Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery

Hello All,

Hi Pascalemod, I think Mr Foeth is spot on with his answers, but to confirm I'll add a few details.

1) Yes both the forward and aft tub between the HACS directors were meant to have a director in them. Its unclear if they ever actually had a director but a UP sight for your timeline is ok, either way is "accurate" as we don't really know. Post Bismarck the forward tub had the 273 radar and the aft again looks empty, in survivor evidence at her sinking a twin Lewis gun was mounted "on a circular platform between the two after directors" so could be that tub?

2) Paravane foot is a yes for me, the Rosyth images don't show one but then again no 285 or 282 radars are fitted, nor are any UP mounts but we know she had these. In her log she records sailing for Rosyth with two propellers lashed to her deck and en route had to stop one of her two remaining shafts due to heated bearings.

3) Yes 3 Anchors, although for Denmark Strait there are anecdotal evidences that state she lost a anchor from the cat on slipping the buoy.

4) As Jamie at colourcoats advises 507a is Home Fleet grey without enamel, and 507b is Home Fleet grey with enamel, so looking at your model it's a dark blue grey so it's fine, lovely weathering by the way.

5) EJ is correct, it's hard to tell as some images do show pattern (very faint) some it's impossible to tell, so again either choice is good. The items stored were spare wings, and wheels and tyres etc, IIRC from KGV images a spare tailplane too.

6) Again EJ is correct we can't see the letters in some pics, in others there there, I think a cover plate was used as if in a port you don't want spies correctly identifying your ship!

7) As EJ says both motor boats and rowed boats were covered when not in use, so if you like people to see your boats leave off the tarps. During the Denmark Strait battle the funnel and boat deck hit caused a lot of her boats to burn so were replaced in refit. EJ spotted a 35 foot fast motor boat replacement in there which was a great spot!

8 According to PoW log the crew painted the metal decks as part of housekeeping duties so i imagine some kind of non slip paint which came in black, very dark grey and Home fleet grey. The turret tops look darker than the sides etc so I'd plump for very dark grey. There is also mention of the crew, and I quote from the log, "staining the deck". Now you can't stain a metal deck, and there is a memo that states decks should be darkened, and the only wooden deck on PoW was the upper deck. But it's up to you, in her nearly new period the decks were not stained so if that's when you want to portray her then your fine. For Denmark Strait I'd say stained but worn by use.

9)Again this ships crest was not fitted in the Rosyth images but was there when she was officially photographed in April and yes your correct its seen in red and white.

10) Again EJ is correct painted in hull anti fouling red.

11) Good question! From images some of the 45 foot motor boats and the 45 foot launch I think were grey, but we never see all of the boats, but grey makes sense, cutters and rowing boats look grey too, the 25 foot motor boats look grey but sometimes the captains boats or Admirals boat was painted with white upperworks, blue hull with white below the waterline. But orders allow captains boats to be green or maroon too if my memory serves me correctly. But if you want a blue boat too it's your model, and a lovely model at that!

Hope that helps a bit
Best wishes
Cag.

I assume you are 100% certain for Scrubbed for April and early May, not after May 7th where decks were stained-darkened?

It is cool that Flyhawk provided a metal plate cover for the name! unexpected of them!



So on this point 8, I am aiming for weathered ship for now so that is ca April-May. According to the logs her decks were stained and darkened May 7th or something. So for Denmark strait she should have had dark decks. But as Im not sure if decks were darkened before (for the sea trials) or not, I might have to keep them wood color. Tough one, as I kind of dig the dark decks, but if I weather the ship for trials, I may not be able to show them dark yet. I might end up going with darkened decks but worn out, like around catapult area and traffic areas.

On those boats:
12) What is actually may be a dumb question, did she have 3 45ft motor boats and 1 45ft launch, OR she had 2 45ft motor boats, and 2 45ft launches? Flyhawk provides 3 45ft motor boats and 1 ft launch.

Also note this picture from 22.05.1941 - is that a 45ft motor boat - or is it a bit small?

_________________
- @Shipific on IG
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Hello All,

Hello Pascalemod, yes the deck was stained on the 8th May, so for your time period it's scrubbed decks as you say. However it's your model and it's up to you, PoW arrived at Scapa from Rosyth at the very end of March and began her trial engine and turning runs etc, but even in early May she was still doing trials and exercises. Due to the threat of raiders etc her Captain reported her fit for duties only days prior to setting off with Hood.

The boats, well to be honest and stay factual it's difficult to tell, it's only assumption on my part as there is only a few aerial shots and most of the boats are covered, but her plans say 3x45 foot motor boats and 1x45 motor launch. But then I'm sure I see 2x45 foot launches in one image but again its covered.

In the image it looks like a 25 foot is in the outboard boat deck position which would make the one on the upper deck similar, but again Im afraid Im not sure as the 32 foot cutter usually placed in front of P1 5.25 mount is missing and it looks a bit like that too!

It's just one of the many new anomalies I'm still trying to figure out.

Hope that helps a little
Best wishes
Cag.

P.S. edit. I've looked at my copy of that image and there doesn't seem to be a boat on the upper deck in the position seen in your image Pascalemod? Only the accommodation ladder and a large rope reel. There must be numerous copies that show different things? Why I'm not sure.

Also in the damage report it lists boats lost
2x45 foot fast motor boats
1x45 foot launch
3x25 foot fast motor boats
2x 27 foot whalers
2x 14 foot dinghies
1x 32 foot cutter

One of the 45 fast motor boats lost and one of the 27 foot whalers lost were completely missing presumed destroyed.

Best wishes again
Cag.

Well that Picture is quite interesting isn't it? It shows a smaller boat - 27foot, vs 45ft. It is covered in white tarp, not in grey, while the 45ft (and all others) covered in grey. What is in place of the 27foot?? Is it just moved to 45ft place? Did they lose the 45ft (place of which is occupied). or they had 4 27ft ones? It is all quite curious.

As ship here is going to battle, it makes sense to have boats covered in grey. It also makes sense to remove the forward boats near 5in guns as one would anyway remove boats from deck for action (Bismark has done the same for example).

_________________
- @Shipific on IG
my gallery

Hello All,

Hi Pascalemod, thinking about it if the damage report mentions only 2 x 45 foot fast motor boats and one 45 foot launch that means a 45 foot boat is missing, which would explain a small boat in a large boats cradle? There are 2x27 foot whalers mentioned but only one 32 foot cutter.

It could be the 32 foot cutter is being stored in that position, as yourself and DavidP say, to protect from blast?

Even despite this numerous fittings, wooden decking, lights, including the main hangar lights, all were damaged by PoW own guns.

Also PoW crew were given postcards to send home, one was a pic of the ships bows (we have one as my uncle served aboard her and he sent one home!) at sea which showed 4 carley floats in two stacks of two on the deck just behind the forward breakwater (long dimension of floats in line with fore and aft line of ship).

A little while later these were moved and can be seen on the forward vertical face of the boat deck, directly opposite the hangar doors in the catapult deck area. So depending on when you want to model your PoW either placing is ok.

Hope that's a bit of help
Best wishes
Cag.

Cag and Pascalemod,

I am a little confused here by the list of boats given in Cag's post of 3.15am of 1 Sept. Is Cag suggesting that the whole establishment of the ship's boats was "lost?" Surely he should have said that those mentioned had been "landed," "disembarked" or sent back to the "dockyard boat pool?" To me "lost" means destroyed due to enemy action/weather or blast damage and thus they had been struck off charge.

Be that as it may, Cag makes no mention of the 13ft 6inch long balsa raft in the establishment of boats: one can be seen in one of the images showing the damage to the ship after the Denmark Strait action.

Concerning the 32ft cutter located forward of P1 5.25inch mounting. If that is the boat that can be seen hanging in davits in some photographs of the ship: this may clear the matter up. That was one of the seaboats, there will normally have been one on the starboard side. Most British battleships removed their seaboats with their associated davits under war conditions. Anyone who went overboard was rescued by the escorting destroyers (if he was lucky). These boats may have been "landed" back to dockyard control or possibly kept onboard, with space found for them somewhere on the upper deck out of harm's way.

Now, that photograph in Pascalemod's post of 3.36pm of 31 Aug. I have no wish to be seen as looking for errors here but are we sure that it shows PoW in the position given and on the date stated? Was the ship in the area indicated on the date given: it is somewhere to the south-south-west of the Faroe Islands. If so, then it indicates that there was a change to the normal layout of the boats onboard.
I would see nothing odd in that.

I've looked carefully at it. The boat under the pale-looking "tarp:" (actually a canvas cover) in the port outboard position on the boat deck has all the signs of being a covered 25ft fast motor boat and thus displacing (for some reason) one of the 45ft fast motor boats.
Further to this Cag, appears to have misinterpreted what he is seeing in that picture: the boat below the one on the boat deck seems to be an image of the one above, moved down and high-lighted to draw attention to it. I apologise if I am wrong.

The other boats in the image are all covered by dark grey dyed (or painted) canvas. The lighter coloured cover is probably un-painted/undyed canvas; which was an ash-grey colour.

Finally, others have said to Pascalemod that it is his model and that he can do what he likes with it. However, he seems to want to get things correct and I applaud him for it, therefore I'm going to make a couple of observations that he might like to consider:

1. The boats of British battleships of that period were usually "covered" on going to sea unless there was a need to access them for maintenance. This was to keep the spray and soot from the ship's boilers when soot was "blown" out of them.
2. Be careful of using "colours" to paint ships' boats. The usual colours were grey (except where part of the camouflage scheme was also applied to the boat). Emerald green was the preserve of boats carried for the Commander-in-Chief of a fleet, dark blue for admirals holding a lesser position afloat. However, there will no doubt be someone who will draw attention images in Raven and Roberts' "British Battleships" that show boats with black hulls: so be it. The upper works of motor boats was usually white with the after cabin of the old 50ft and 45ft steam boats varnished. Whatever the case, I've always understood that the Admiralty took a dim view of boats that were not painted in the approved (conservative) manner.

Thanks for posting the 2nd photo Pascalemod!

_________________
“We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
“A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942

Hi All

Hello Guest, thank you for the information on boats etc its much appreciated. Your point on boats lost is well made, the gist of my post was the number and type of boats listed as being on board, and presumably lost due to being missing, unrepairable or damaged and repairable, but to be more accurate

Boats missing
1x45 foot fast motor boat
1x27 foot whaler

Boats removed damaged beyond repair
2x25 foot fast motor boats

Boats removed capable of repair
1x45 foot fast motor boat
1x45 foot launch
1x25 foot fast motor boat
1x32 foot cutter
1x27 foot whaler
2x14 foot dinghies

Yes the raft, that presumably was on board as on the plans it's indicated as stored on the roof of the boat deck engine room vent. However it's not mentioned in the damage report, nor is the 16ft fast motor dinghy or "skimming dish" (The two catamaran fenders stored in the catapult deck area are not mentioned either).

As for the boat on the deck, I agree, as I pointed out in my post, in my copy of that image it did not show this boat, only the reel and the companion ladder. I'm sure you're correct that somehow in some images it's been transposed down for some reason, simple reproduction error?

Hi Pascalemod, yes that second image is what I have, it shows no boat on the deck, it would seem odd to not see boats in front of P1 only to store one next to P4 if its to protect from blast!

I agree with the sentiments expressed by guest that your, and others, wish to be ultra accurate is commendable, and of course if I can help in any way it's a pleasure, because your model is a pleasure to view!

Unfortunately having done a lot of research on PoW and the Denmark Strait battle, there are sometimes things we think we know, things we presume are probable, but sometimes there are things we just don't know and this where, in our models, artistic licence takes over.

For example I know that on a certain day her log states her deck was stained, I know of a memo that instructs HM ships to stain decks and what to use, but I don't know if PoW crew used that particular stain, what exact parts of the deck or how much was stained and how and where it wore off.

In images a wet deck can look like a stained deck, so which areas are wet, and which are stained? Therefore I can only say its your model and if you are happy with your representation based on what facts we are sure of, then again it will be a very great pleasure to see your finished model and appreciate the hard work youve put in.

Best wishes
Cag.

Pardon my ignorance Cag, but are your above two paragraphs talking about the same photo or two different photos?

Whatever the case may be, would you be kind enough to point out what photo/s which of your paragraphs refer to please?

TIA.
Kevin

_________________
“We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
“A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942

Hello All,

Hello Kevin, no problem I should have connected them really. They are about the same image yes.

The image is the one Pascalemod posted of PoW on her way to the Denmark Strait battle, if as the guest poster intimates, it is a pic at that time as I too have seen many a PoW image that is either dated wrong or is really KGV.

My copy only shows a boat on the boat deck, not on the upper deck behind P4 5.25" mounting.

I hope that helps, sorry for any confusion,
Best wishes
Cag.

No doubt about it being PoW, at least. The Bofors on the quarterdeck guarantees that.

_________________
King George V class Battleships in 3D

Thanks for your reply Cag!

Any chance of posting the above photo of yours you refer to? Or is it already somewhere in the thread?

TIA.
Kevin

_________________
“We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
“A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942

Hi All

Hi Kevin, yes no problem it's the pair of images on page 42 that Pascalemod posted at 3.36 on Aug 31st.

They show a port side quarter view of PoW dated 22/05/41 in position that is stated to be 60°40' N 06° 00' W.

I think there's a corresponding image of Hood taken around the same time I presume but dont quote me that is meant to be of her on passage to what would have been Iceland at that point.

Hope that's ok
Best wishes
Cag.

I reply inline in bold.



A question to you Guest also - how did they cover boats in canvas that were stacked into each other? One large canvas over all? Only canvas on top the smallest of them, and rest were not covered? I dont get how you stack 2 boats into the 45ft launch, and cover the 45ft launch in meaningful way. Any idea?


You're welcome. Also cleared up few questions.

_________________
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Note my picture below. I have tried to place the boats you indicated. I guess the one I didnt know about is 16ft one? So thats what FH think boat placement is at least for 12.41 but it is same for 5.41.

What P1 and P4 boat storage you mention? I cannot see anything there.. . I plan to rearrange boats based on mentions - probably remove the 45ft foot on port side, put the 25ft there, but then not sure what happens to the space it leaves. What goes instead of it there?

Indeed the deck question is a funny one. I agree that fully wet deck will look dark grey on pics. I also dont think why it should be fully wet in those sea conditions. They look uniformly dark. And it has been done. It also can be fully scrubbed clean and drying. It could be anything. If logs say it should be dark, it should be painted dark as it makes a lot of sense. Germans allowed their decks to just age to greyish color during same time, so grey decks were a thing. Such a tough one!

Who knew this can be so complicated!

_________________
- @Shipific on IG
my gallery

Pascalemod,

"I don't know what it is" is a 16ft fast motor dinghy aka "skimmer" or "skimming dish." Details provided by Cag seem to indicate that it was not onboard during the Denmark Strait action (he will correct me, if I am wrong). The "27ft cutters" are in fact the 25ft fast motor boats. Cag indicates that all of these boats were onboard.

Can you see the two 32ft cutters that are forward of P1 and S1 5.25 mountings in the last photographs of the ship that you posted? No? Then they weren't there at that time. In any case they would have been reduced to flying match-sticks if the forward 14inch mountings ever had to fire on an after bearing! If they were still onboard and all the details that Cag has supplied indicates that only one was, then they (or it if only one) were/was probably stowed in the waist aft of the catapult, forward of the after superstructure. Don't take everything that you see on a set of kit assembly drawings as "read."

Re: Covering the boats, I'll get back to you.

PS One thing that "Flyhawk" does not appear to have provided a model of is the 13ft 6inch balsa raft, which appears to have been stowed on top of the grey "square" in the middle of the boat group in your model. Cag has identified what this structure was in a previous post.

PPS Building from "scratch" is much more fun........ and much more frustrating! Especially if you have to draw the plans as well.