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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:22 pm 
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Jeff,
Point well taken! The drawings were dated in the early/mid '30s, so by late '30s both ships could have had them removed and decked over.

Hank

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:36 am 
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Hello everyone

Does anybody can help with shell expansion of lower part of Arizona hull. I'm looking for any drawings

thanks
chris


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:47 pm 
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Others could confirm, but it seems like they're what we'd call 'skylights' in regular architecture: a way for natural light to reach into the hull to provide lighting without/in addition to interior electric lights.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:25 pm 
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Location: Tempe, Arizona
Gunfighter, welcome! If you go back one page in this thread the deck lights were briefly discussed. They were most likely gone (plated/teaked over) in the mid to late 1930s. What year are you building your Arizona to represent?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:13 pm 
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Anyone know if the anchors were dropped while the Arizona was moored at Pearl Harbor? Anyone have any pics of how the ships on Battleship Row were tied up? Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:17 pm 
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Anchors were not dropped. The ships were tied up to the quays, but I don't have any drawings or diagrams.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:18 pm 
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Great catch on the skylight!


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:53 am 
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OK, don't know if anyone is still out there, but here goes. Have question for you Arizona guys. Were the stays or guide wires still in place for the stack or funnel after her last overhual at Bremerton? I know that they were on the Pennsylvania from pictures taken in 42 after repairs after Pearl attack. But have found no pics of Arizona where I could tell if they were still there. If so where would they have been anchored to the ship. It seems that they should still be there to hold the funnel in place. But make no assumpions at this time.
On another note others have wondered where the cables that ran up the outside of the mast legs in earler day were moved to. They were run up the inside of the center legs on both masts. Seen pics showing this as well as a ladder that ran to the top inside. No place for someone who was claustrophobic.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:04 am 
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Whew! I just got through reading all 119 pages of this.....

Lots of interesting info....

The reason I read it was to see if there has been any resolution to the color issue... Obviously there are still two camps, 5D dark grey (black) and 5S Sea Blue....

After reading through this and Tracy's website showing the official documents, I have come to the conclusion for me that there is a very high probability that the Arizona had a large amount of sea blue paint on her the morning of December 7th.... The one thing that turned me was the secretary of the survivors association getting the opportunity to ask a group of survivors about it and to a man they recited the crew being called out en-masse for painting detail while her collision damage was being repaired and that paint was blue. That, coupled with the documents from Tracy's site, confirm for me that she was in blue, at the minimum, the hull and major structures.

Given the collision damage that opened up a 30 foot split in her hull and a dent that was at least 10 feet deep by 50 feet long and 20 feet high, would necessitate the hulls repainting. and at that point 5D paint was in very short supply as production had been ceased 4 months earlier. Orders in hand mandated that any yard availability involving major repairs to a ship would necessitate a ships repainting which would have been in 5S Sea Blue as those were the orders we know were in hand.... (the orders into 5N Navy Blue weren't issued until after the attack)

I do not know how long the Arizona was in dry dock being repaired but it certainly was long enough to be fully repainted but there is no confirmation of this all we have is oral testimony of the major portions of the ship being done but the witness had no idea of any other areas of the ship he wasn't responsible for.... (Loren Bruner)

So my opinion is that she was blue given the evidence in hand and at the upper end of speculation, completely done, at the lower end, just the major structures done....

Does that sound about right?

EG


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:22 am 
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a survivor who was involved with the painting says painting was incomplete & not yet done above the 01 deck because of the attack.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:07 am 
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I'm not a member as I don't have a Facebook account, but there's a Facebook group for Naval Camouflage where there has been discussion of the Pearl Harbor battle fleet camouflage recently, I understand. I'm pretty much staying to archival research to form my opinion, but obviously with Covid there's not likely to be movement on that front until next year at the earliest.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:23 am 
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DavidP wrote:
a survivor who was involved with the painting says painting was incomplete & not yet done above the 01 deck because of the attack.


Hi David, thanks for the response.

Your referring to Loren Bruener's statement when directly asked if the painting was done.... kinda as an afterthought..... I know from many interviews I have read from ships personnel of the period that a ships painting is never done especially during peacetime. They are constantly being repainted.... His response just prior to that question being asked was that his area was done but that he didn't know about the areas that were not his responsibility... that was his direct answer to being asked about the rest of the areas of the ship.... While in the group his statement that it was blue paint was unchallenged by the rest of the group. Distinctly because of the difficulty in covering the almost black 5D with the much lighter 5S....

I'm using a preponderance of the evidence judgment here where it seems like many are using a beyond reasonable doubt standard here...

I can understand wanting a final absolute answer which would probably take the form of some kind of document from ships force stating directly that the painting was completed...

I doubt that is ever going to be found. But I pose this from the lengthy discussion of witness reliability and how we cannot rely on muddled, decades old witness testimony on the one hand yet everyone seems to be hanging their hat on Loren Bruener's credibility for this ONE statement as an absolute...... Especially stacked up against all the other evidence which admittedly does not state with absolute clarity that the job was finished...

Hence my conclusion that there was a ton of blue paint on Arizona, the fact that she was repainted and in 5S is not in doubt. We may not have the absolute fact established from a document saying such as she was finished. But from the documents available, 5S was the only paint available to paint her in after repairing her damage, Measure 1 in that 5S were the orders in hand during her repair. (revised ships 2 came down during her repair changing Measure 1 to Measure 11 which was simply a change in base color from 5D to 5S) The testimony of the guys aboard (including Loren Bruener's) confirm that sufficient paint was brought aboard, the entire crew not standing regular watches were ordered to heave to for painting detail during those repairs, documents clearly stating that 5S was the only paint available, the damage being such extent that it would require a complete repaint, those orders were acted upon.

The preponderance of evidence says it was done in my opinion..... and no I cannot hang my hat on Loren Bruener's one answer to an off the cuff question about areas he clearly said were not his responsibility so he didn't know, his area was done was his direct answer. A very understandable response, given being trained to take care of your duties and not worry about others persons assigned duties.... I suspect many of the crew were just like him.... Their areas were done....

I can only come to the conclusion for me that she was finished in Measure 11, 5S, Sea Blue.

That is my opinion based upon the evidence we have in hand.

My only question was is my summary of what I've read over 119 pages correct?

The only remaining question is ....
"Was the USS Arizona's paint job in November after her collision with the Oklahoma, completed?"
.....the evidence of what that job was is already in hand....

And I agree that we do not know for sure and prior to her collision, she was in Measure 1, 5D, Dark Grey....

I hope this clears up what I was asking....

I don't want to drag up another argument just get a firm footing on the state of Arizona's paint as of the assembled information to date.....


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:41 am 
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Tracy White wrote:
I'm not a member as I don't have a Facebook account, but there's a Facebook group for Naval Camouflage where there has been discussion of the Pearl Harbor battle fleet camouflage recently, I understand. I'm pretty much staying to archival research to form my opinion, but obviously with Covid there's not likely to be movement on that front until next year at the earliest.


I understand that my friend, as a researcher you have to take that course....

Your probably looking for something like a yard communication/report that the painting was completed or not, I doubt that you will find a direct order to repaint given the directives you already found....

And thank you for your diligent efforts in uncovering what you already have....

EG


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:27 pm 
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A nice, calm, reasonable and measured argument. Refreshing!

I like how you lay the argument out - it's quite plausible.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:34 pm 
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I'm actually not looking for a communique that is from a ship. At this point I'm just hitting up all the likely spots looking for any snippet or fragment that I can as there were a lot of little things going on that's fun to find in general.

Ron Smith once told me over the phone that he had found a memo from Admiral Kimmel that ordered the battleships to keep enough 5-D for one repaint uf the hull, turn the rest in, and then repaint areas from the main deck to top of the funnels in 5-O Ocean Gray or 5-S Sea Blue "as needed" with no need to communicate this higher up the chain. This would explain why some ships have sections that look lighter than others. This is also somewhat in line with the graded schemes such as Measure 2 and 12, so it doesn't fail any logic test unless someone is applying extremely strict standards (i.e. "if there's no documentation found it never happened at all"). There was a point where he burned out on research and camouflage and mailed me copies of his research, but one of the two boxes he sent me got lost and never arrived. I wasn't able to find that note and it remains apocryphal until I can find it again, but that is a good portion of what is being discussed and examined in the Facebook group.

My only comment on it is that if there were supply problems with the new paints I would think that 5-O would be more likely as it took less pigment than 5-S or 5-N.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:19 pm 
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MartinJQuinn wrote:
A nice, calm, reasonable and measured argument. Refreshing!

I like how you lay the argument out - it's quite plausible.


Why thank you Martin, I don't have a dog in this debate so to speak but I have built the 'zona 7 times (the revell version) and I've been collecting data for the last two decades in preparation for probably my last build of her.... This time for myself.... (the banner/hobby boss/trumpeter version)

After three days reading the thread I figured that it would be nice to put everything in order, eliminate the non-essentials and take a dispassionate look at the issue and see how one fact relates to the other facts and maybe dispassionately clear some of the fog.... Once done, it does seem to lead to a supportable conclusion, and being an amature historian I like supportable conclusions.... (even if I don't have the "smoking gun")

My last step is to take the two pictures posted, the life magazine shot and it's "color corrected version" as posted here to a professional photo restorer and see what he has to say.... I have my opinions from other pics I've asked him about but I won't say until he actually examines them and tells me what he thinks.... I've learned to trust his work.... He agrees that trying to color grade B&W photography is a joke being played on the color graders minds..... (essentially they don't know what they are doing)

My position at this point is she was blue, probably most of her was blue to a point that makes little difference in the big scheme of things... I was a grey/black guy till i read this thread and did my own analysis of the evidence......

In a way I'm excited, but also sad that it has come to such an emotion filled divisive issue.... But in general, I see most models built for the last ten years or so being very blue... So, I guess there are many more that have read the evidence the same way I have.

The same an Don Pruel did 15 years ago and the survivors who were alive back then were brought to tears when they saw it, that says tons to me that they recognized it as it really was even if their specific recollections were not complete....

Again, thank you. The thread I believe has fulfilled it's purpose.....


Last edited by Egilman on Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:42 pm 
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Tracy White wrote:
I'm actually not looking for a communique that is from a ship. At this point I'm just hitting up all the likely spots looking for any snippet or fragment that I can as there were a lot of little things going on that's fun to find in general.

Ron Smith once told me over the phone that he had found a memo from Admiral Kimmel that ordered the battleships to keep enough 5-D for one repaint uf the hull, turn the rest in, and then repaint areas from the main deck to top of the funnels in 5-O Ocean Gray or 5-S Sea Blue "as needed" with no need to communicate this higher up the chain. This would explain why some ships have sections that look lighter than others. This is also somewhat in line with the graded schemes such as Measure 2 and 12, so it doesn't fail any logic test unless someone is applying extremely strict standards (i.e. "if there's no documentation found it never happened at all"). There was a point where he burned out on research and camouflage and mailed me copies of his research, but one of the two boxes he sent me got lost and never arrived. I wasn't able to find that note and it remains apocryphal until I can find it again, but that is a good portion of what is being discussed and examined in the Facebook group.

My only comment on it is that if there were supply problems with the new paints I would think that 5-O would be more likely as it took less pigment than 5-S or 5-N.


My guess Tracy is you would have better luck looking and searching around the yard notes and communiques specifically surrounding the hull repair if they still exist. with the orders in hand and they way orders were communicated back then I sincerely doubt there would be anything from the command that states the painting was finished.... If there is a smoking gun to resolve this it would be in the yard records of the hull repair.

I know that Kimmel (cincpac) and King (cinclant) each had sent their preferences to Adm. Robinson, Chief of the newly created Bureau of Ships, given their specific needs in the pacific and atlantic areas of operation. Kimmel wanting Measure 1 5S for the pacific fleet and King requesting Measure 2 graded for the atlantic fleet in early August the final response was the first revision of Ships-2 giving Kimmel his preference in Measure 11 and King his in Measure 12.... and Ships-2 was the final decision of where they were going, the experimentation was mainly over... Although Adm King did express a preference for a darker blue (which turned out to be 5N Navy Blue by increasing the tm paste in a 5 gallon bucket of 5U by 50% over 5S Sea Blue which Adm. Robinson made allowance for as a viable substitution in Measure 12.....

The information you got from Ron I've read before, (Kimmel's order to keep one complete repaint, I think it was back in August I believe just before the order to cease production took effect) I just have to go back thru my notes to see if I still have the reference to where I saw it... Will get back to you if I find it....

I can't seem to find that FB group, searching FB doesn't bring anything up relative to painting the Arizona..... shame I would have liked to read it.....

And again thank you for being patient with all the emotional absolutists, they can be very trying at times.... (personally I've admired your work for a long time)

EG


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:02 pm 
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I'm guessing the FB group in question is Warship Camouflage Research Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1938148576493719

It's private and by invite only, so could be why it didn't show up in your searches.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:14 pm 
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Timmy C wrote:
I'm guessing the FB group in question is Warship Camouflage Research Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1938148576493719

It's private and by invite only, so could be why it didn't show up in your searches.


Thank You Timmy!!!

It helps to have the title to the group...

Yes it's a private group, you can apply for membership and they can chose to let you in or not....

I've applied, now awaiting approval.....

Thank you....


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:29 pm 
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Egilman wrote:
And again thank you for being patient with all the emotional absolutists, they can be very trying at times....


It doesn't happen all the time but occasionally someone pisses me off in a way that motivates me to prove them wrong and that's what the flame wars back then did. I am personally keeping myself neutral now (my signature should explain why) but at the time I had some good friends in the "Blue Crew" and seeing how they got treated really turned me off (to be sure, their behavior wasn't always top shelf either) and since I had *some* documentation that refuted some of the arguments it seemed natural to put them in a place where everyone could read them and some people might STFU.

It also turned out in the early phase that I learned there was a ton about USN camouflage we still didn't know and it was a good project for me to take on to research when I could. There have been enough people, such as yourself, who have thanked me over the years that I know from many different ways that my time has been a good benefit to a lot of people, so I am content with that much even if we don't 100% solve Arizona's question.

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