The Ship Model Forum

Useful! So what does this look to you on this pic - wood or painted? If Im doing April - speed trials ship, I guess wood or paint both could be true. THough to me it looks chipping paint on wood. At least the texture of the spars seem visible, and Id have thought they were smooth enough that when painted it wouldnt show. What do you think? In one of images lower one of the deck spars is standing upright. Surely some of you can tell from this if this is painted wood or not?

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- @Shipific on IG
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The 'upright spar is a paravane derrick and does not appear to be wood at all (and is painted); the rest (wood) is not painted. The first image shows that clearly and a bunch of other high-res pics I have show the rest to be unpainted too.

If I may ask, who is 'The Brass' doing the inspection in pascalemod's post above?

And is that actually on PoW?

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“We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
“A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942

Hello All

Hi Pascalemod, your model deserves be on a cover of any book!

Jamie is correct in his post as regards spars booms etc, but EJ is correct too as on PoW it seems to have been missed (that's the problem with ships, you just never know what is going on!).

If you look on the IWM photo library and put in Number A3910 I think it is, taken in April 41 you'll see the spar being cleaned (I think by one of the two sets of twins that were aboard PoW) and the wood grain is visible, of course this may be because its early on in her career and hasn't been done yet, or with use its worn off, they may be cleaning it, as matter of course for the picture, or in preparation to paint it, or repaint it!

Hi Kevin, the brass I think is actually Captain Leach, so it may be an inspection that coincides with Divisions?

Maybe our guest may help with that as he has better knowledge of ship protocols etc than I do, but I'm pretty sure it's Captain Leach.

Best wishes
Cag.

Cag flatters me!

Kevin, the man is a little distant in the image shown but from his rank, demeanour and apparent height, I would say that it probably is Captain John Leach MVO (at that time and later awarded the DSO): known to his friends in the service, from what I have read elsewhere, as "Trunky" on account of his prominent nose, inspecting the Divisions of his crew. He was the father or the late Admiral of the Fleet Sir Henry Leach. There is an individual, closer full length photograph of Captain Leach at IWM photograph H12775.

Re: The painting of spars and booms. I cannot argue with what has gone before on this subject. However and as most will know, the problem with painting any surface is that one may not achieve full coverage of the previous finish until two or more coats of paint have been applied. It is therefore possible that the effect we are seeing is the nature of the wood "grinning" through the grey paint that has been applied. This is likely to be even more obvious if the paint applied is no more than a cosmetic "wash" in order to cover the varnished surface and comply with a general order to tone down "bright-work."

Cag's pointing out the IWM's A3910 interesting. I can't make out exactly what the young sailors are doing nor what with but scrapping off the varnish with a variety of (unclear) tools, in preparation for applying the grey paint seems the most likely.

Thanks sir, and Cag. Once Cag had mentioned that possibility it certainly fitted given the persons height, etc. And yes it seems he was a very well liked individual by his crew/s. A shame he was lost in the fashion he was.

Cag, pardon my sloth in answering latest PM, but only saw it late last night. Will try to do it justice with a reply later today.

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“We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
“A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942

There is a closer photo of Captain Leach in his son's autobiography "Endure no makeshifts".

As already said, he was greatly respected by his ships company.

Henry Leach was very much from the same mould - I still remember meeting him in the 1980s when he visited the RN Gunnery training range at HMS Cambridge and hearing his impressions of being in charge of HMS Duke of York's A turret during the Scharnhorst engagement.

Incidentally, admittedly as mainly an onlooker to this thread rather than as a contributor, I find myself puzzled by the extensive use of "Guest" effectively as an ID (are all the posts are from the same contributor?), especially when trying to follow who said what over a period of time. Is there some reason for this that can be revealed to the wider membership perhaps?

Thanks for posting that pic of Capt Leach!

Hear, hear! A mystery man or men it seems, for whatever reason only they know. Each to their own I suppose, but it would be nice to have a name, even if a pseudonym, as opposed to multiple "guest's".

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“We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
“A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942

I was stationed to the Admiral's staff in Naples from '78-80 and was impressed by Admiral Leach. One day he and Admiral Kidd attended a luncheon at the CINCSOUTH Mess and knowing the backgrounds of both I was gobsmacked.

Er, isn't it time we got back to the real subject of this site: model-making and not the reminiscences of long-retired sailors?

Guest or avatar, it doesn't matter who a person is as long as the question answered by the enquirer is answered honestly: others having better knowledge will chip in.

No doubt the Moderator will ban all "Guests" if he or she considers it necessary. That is their privilege.

My, my, the suggestion of a simple courtesy certainly got your hackles up. Oh well, each to their own, no matter how knowledgeable they are they can of course remain anonymous however they choose to. And you have obviously chosen to remain as simply guest. But as another poster mentioned, after a while on a long thread, one doesn't know which 'guest' is which. Oh well, so be it.

But as, er, for models Mr Guest; well I don't build models, but I do dive and explore shipwrecks, so I am more than happy to hear about long lost sailors of whom we all owe a debt of gratitude, especially the 'lost' ones. No doubt.

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“We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
“A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942

Guests are folks who don't register and don't use a user name when posting.

All non-member posts are vetted by the moderator corp before they are posted.

That being said...

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Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery

Hi All,

Hi Guest, sorry Im catching up, yes it could be anything that they are scraping off!

I've seen older documents to say that at one time the RN painted parts of the ship in enamels and parts in just oil dependant on their use. So at one point in time (not in WW2 I hasten to add) the hull, funnel and masts and spars etc would be painted with oil paint.

With the loss of any enamel paint use in WW2 again Id agree and say that oil paint would be used on booms and refreshed as and when because booms were in frequent use.

The point of this was the use of a matt paint, as enamels, and no doubt varnish, caught the light creating what was known as "flash" where a ships position could be given away to aircraft etc because of the light, for want of a better description, glistening off glossy paintwork.

So I guess for your model Pascalemod it's another one that may be artistic licence. We have evidence of bare booms, perhaps at some point painted to adhere to orders, which would wear. I will try to look at my images of booms and see if I can be more accurate, but to be honest whether you paint them Home Fleet grey, wood or worn paint it would correctly represent the booms at some point in time.

Post Bismarck again I'd agree booms were painted in camo paint, some documents say the MS and B camo paints were an oil emulsion type paint which wasn't very hard wearing so again dependant on when portrayed, ie fresh or worn, it would be dependent on that factor how booms were represented.

Hope that helps a little bit,

Best wishes
Cag.

Guys, what are those white bands on the main mast of PoW in photos towards Denmark Strait battle, but they appear to be on and off during previous pics that I cannot quite tell. Hood had two white bands on its tripod legs, and PoW seems to have three bands on its tripod main mast. Was that addition due to joining Hood in pursuit of bismarck and related squadron? Or some general RN practice for Home Fleet? Or smth else?


I recall different ships of same class would carry white or red bands on funnels during WW1 period only. Is that what we are seeing here in a different form (on a mast)? Anyone have good pics around April-May of PoWs masts? Im not even sure if the tops were white, of the sections above funnels were black.

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- @Shipific on IG
my gallery

Hi All

Hi Pascalemod, not too sure, I've seen those markings on the maimasts of British capital ships pre and during WW2. I did think it was something to do with the rudder steering indicators (the double cone object to port and ball object to starboard), but I'm not really sure.

I don't think they are like the funnel bands on destroyers, however if you take a look at IWM image A 3925 which is from April 41 you can see that the mainmast is overall Home Fleet grey at that time.

Hope that helps a little bit
Best wishes
Cag.

Edit Just to add as I think you were asking about Walrus camo, see IWM image A4231 too, it shows at least one Walrus used at some point had wing camo.

Best wishes
Cag.

Cannot figure this bit out. Im staring at these two boats fitted behind the second wavebreaker near B turret on PoW and Im not sure how best to display them:

1) Covered in Canvas, Davits folded and not connected
2) Covered in Canvas, Davits deployed, but not connected to boats
3) Covered in Canvas, Davits deployed also, AND connected to boats
3) Not covered in canvas, Davits deployed and connected to lifeboats

Now, realy I want to know how would I show her with boats covered in canvas - is it 1, 2 or 3? I looked at some pics of passenger liners of 1920s and they all have this lifeboat, covered, and hanging on davits with the connection points going through the canvas. Id assume it is same on KGV, but when the boats are on cradles on deck - then what? ...

Im sure 4 is legit but Im not sure on painting the boat at the moment (grey hull, white benches and tops, grey inside, wooden floor, or wooden inside except grey top and top benches, etc, I really cant tell from pics).

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- @Shipific on IG
my gallery

Hi All,

Hi Pascalemod, again its up to you, I've seen images of the 32 foot cutter canvas covered on deck, no davits, on deck uncovered falls attached, on deck uncovered no davits, and on davits swung out ready as a crash boat for Walrus operation.

From images the exterior looks grey, not sure on the insides but will check later.

Hope that helps
Best wishes
Cag.

Well not only that, but on some pics the boats are near the edge of the deck, and on some - near the barbette of B turret! And I dont think anyone mentioned that before also, but clearly the moved that boat back and forth, and at times it wasnt even there (like May 21).

_________________
- @Shipific on IG
my gallery

I imagine it depends heavily on operational circumstances?

Given the position of those particular boats they would likely be vulnerable to blast damage from the main and possibly even the secondary guns? If you are depicting Prince of Wales on sea trials then perhaps go with the cutters swung out on their davits? As seen here in peacetime post-war exercises:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sThwNgRxxJk

During trials, like in peacetime it was probably handy to have a cutter swung out and ready for quick lowering in case of man overboard? However if contact with enemy surface ships was probable, then most likely the cutters were moved and stowed somewhere safer to avoid blast damage from the ship's own guns?

@Mr.Church

Yes, and so many unknowns to this issue tell me that whatever I do is OK ultimately and noone can say it is really wrong. Thus, Im leaving the cutters opened and on davits but not swung out (this is for practical reasons though - I dont like stuff sticking out beyond the ships's deck for model handling reasons. Worst thing is to knock a boat down in few years and then what do we do...

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- @Shipific on IG
my gallery