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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:07 am 
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I had the same thought. Plus, I do not know what type of sighting equipment on a lower bridge level would 'fit' the height/position of these three spots.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:58 am 
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Brett Morrow wrote:
Was there an inner bulkhead with scuttles behind the open frames?
This perception of glassed windows is also reproduced in many incorrect renditions of Leander class cruisers. The RAN modified Leander class also had open frames with an open avenue between the inner wall and outer skin, I expect Exeter may have been the same.
Even though these scuttles were in shadow, at just the right angle they would reflect light, I have seen stranger things.
Could this not be reflections of those inner scuttles? as per the attachment of Leander.

Re my now underlined above Brett; the answer is (partly) yes, there is a walkway / companionway of what looks to be about 3ft / 1mt wide between those outer 'windows' and the inner bulkhead on Exeter.

However, I'll have to have a play with some of my u/w photos to see if I can bring out some better detail on that inner bulkhead, as that side (port) of the wreck was facing upwards (as she lay on her stbd side), thus silt had built up on it, so nothing readily discernible at first glance to tell if there are scuttles along there on not. Personally I would assume so, but that's just a wild WAG.

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:13 am 
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And the answer, even without looking further into the u/w photos, is; yes there are scuttles in that inner bulkhead.

They actually can be seen in an enhanced crop of the photo Marco posted above. :thumbs_up_1:


Attachments:
Inner scuttles Exeter bridge.jpg
Inner scuttles Exeter bridge.jpg [ 51.38 KiB | Viewed 1844 times ]

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:21 am 
I know that the answer has/appears to have been arrived at but for what my small amount of change is worth: I would not disagree with Brett Morrow. If the background beyond the photographer is a "big sky" one and the scuttles in the screen of the superstructure inside the "gallery" (possibly part of the flag deck) were closed, the glass in them could well reflect back lighter than the surface they are in. This can be seen in the effect of some of the scuttles in the hull: one or two appear black (open), the other appear lighter (closed).

EJ Foeth questions another possibility; which is some form of sighting equipment in the location: maybe but I believe that unlikely.
The only alternative that I would have offered is that they are reflections of what were known as Kent Clear View screen windows in windows that were later removed; which EXETER had at the forward end of the bridge but then the square pane of the remainder of the glass would also have reflected.

I am afraid that I can't find any good pictures of EXETER in any of my references that would be of help: plenty of her sister-ship (different bridge superstructure). Whatever, the as fitted drawings would be able to confirm or perhaps the ship has an association website that might be of help.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:50 pm 
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My first thought also was the "clear view screen" window:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_view_screen

These were developed in the mid 1930s so they could have been installed. But they were normally on the forward facing windows on an enclosed bridge. If they had been installed the glass around them would also reflect light about the same.

Some ships had windows that hinged up and latched to the overhead. Bus in the US Navy only every other window hinged up and the windows between were fixed.

Open bridges with no protection from the elements were common before and during WWII. Sometimes they had a few glass or plastic windows on the forward facing part, but I can tell you from experience that these don't help much in foul weather!

The side "gallery" as someone called it is an open bridge used during docking, underway replenishment, personnel high lining, or any other operation requiring close maneuvering.

Of all the guesses I have seen I think reflections from air ports (port holes) on the inner bulkhead is the most likely.

Phil

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:53 am 
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KevinD wrote:
Marco wrote:
I noticed somebody adding simulated glass to the bridge windows of an HMS Exeter scale model (another forum). Somebody else remarked that those windows did not have any, and I nodded, of course, I "knew". But now, I am in doubt, after looking at this picture, I see reflection from "glass" ?

I guess these windows had glass that could be opened (to the inside?) or am I wrong? Would be a nice detail to put some sheets of "glass" to some of the windows.

Marco

Hi Marco,

If there was glass in the windows on the sides of the upper bridge, then I have never seen it shown in any historical photos (or if there was, then the windows are always shown open), nor was any glass there on the wreck. Nor did we find any evidence of sliding panels that could have slide open / closed either. (However there were of course panes of glass around the open bridge, although on the wreck many had fallen out.)

The arrows in the collage below point to the relevant areas photographed on the wreck (note; as the u/w photos were taken with a 'fish-eye' lens there is some curvature in the u/w image on right.)

Image #2 is just a close up of the bridge in 1941.

However, and this is a general question to anyone, in image #3 also taken in 1941, what are the small lighter coloured 'circles' that we see ‘in’ (or behind?) three of the windows?


Well thank you for those details! I didn´t know there was glass installed on the open bridge (too tiny to issue in 1/350). I guess the effect of having some structure inside the bridge will provide the desired effect.

By the way, I see that the inner part of doors open on the HMS Exeter are white, but it seems like the interior of the bridge was sort of light or medium blue, is this true? No clue at all.

Marco


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:16 am 
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Another doubt I have, about the triangular reinforcements around the barbettes. I know that the ones molded in Trumpeter's kit are wrong, thanks to this forum, but I see there are differences in number and position of the reinforcements between the barbettes of the front turrets. The front turret seems to have 12, sort of even-spaced reinforcement, while the second turret is missing at least one lateral reinforcement, there is a box there instead, and the spacing does not seem to be even, more separated. Not trying to complicate my life, but worth checking. I haven´t been able to find any other good picture of that area. Any thoughts?

Image

Marco


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:57 pm 
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And now I realize, that the barbette of the second turret is taller than the one from the front turret... well, that I will not correct, next time.

Marco


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:42 am 
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Marco wrote:
Another doubt I have, about the triangular reinforcements around the barbettes. I know that the ones molded in Trumpeter's kit are wrong, thanks to this forum, but I see there are differences in number and position of the reinforcements between the barbettes of the front turrets. The front turret seems to have 12, sort of even-spaced reinforcement, while the second turret is missing at least one lateral reinforcement, there is a box there instead, and the spacing does not seem to be even, more separated. Not trying to complicate my life, but worth checking. I haven´t been able to find any other good picture of that area. Any thoughts?

Image

Marco

Hi Marco, all,

Thank you for that photo, it is a great surprise for me! I hadn't seen that at all, only of the forward and rear barbettes.

What I'm now guessing from this photo: the 'B' barbette has eight supports, not in the 'cardinal' positions but in between those, and not evenly spaced. They must of course link up to some structure below the deck - which we have no information on at this moment. And you are right that it is also slightly higher than the 'A' barbette.

Any other views?

Maarten

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Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:37 am 
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Maarten Schönfeld wrote:
Any other views?
Maarten


Attachments:
Turrets-1.jpg
Turrets-1.jpg [ 347.94 KiB | Viewed 1516 times ]
Turrets-2.jpg
Turrets-2.jpg [ 336.89 KiB | Viewed 1516 times ]

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:07 am 
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A couple more.


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Turret-4.jpg
Turret-4.jpg [ 261.84 KiB | Viewed 2211 times ]

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:45 am 
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KevinD wrote:
Maarten Schönfeld wrote:
Any other views?
Maarten

Thanks for those pictures, Kevin! They seem to confirm the previous notion. The upper one is a bit hard to read (damn the shadow) but the lower one is very clear.

Also interesting: in the second one the lower row of scuttles is largely reduced, and some are even relocated.

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"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:43 pm 
Maarten,

Re: Your last sentence.

I agree, until one sees a full hull image of the ship when one can see the illusion that the forward upper row of scuttles is distorted, is fostered by the sheer of the Upper Deck and that of the bow knuckle. The result is not aesthetically pleasing.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:41 pm 
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Guest wrote:
Maarten,

Re: Your last sentence.

I agree, until one sees a full hull image of the ship when one can see the illusion that the forward upper row of scuttles is distorted, is fostered by the sheer of the Upper Deck and that of the bow knuckle. The result is not aesthetically pleasing.


I didn't mean the lower row of scuttles is distorted, most of them have been closed or blanked over! But that wasn't uncommon in that period, in many ships during the war (and after) the lower scuttles were seen as a real hazard, both in case of battle but also during heavy weather. More holes in a ship are more risky when something goes wrong. As ventilation systems improved the need for scuttles (natural ventilation) has also been reduced.

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"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:47 pm 
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I appreciate your opinions and information, Marteen and Kevin, I just finished fixing the reinforcements on my HMS Exeter (was crossing fingers nobody showed up with different information! HA!)

Marco


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:26 pm 
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Greetings everyone. Not to add another tangent, but does anyone know of a reference that might list Exeter's boats at the time of the River Plate? I am thinking of aftermarket improvements but am not good enough with RN craft to be able to recognize types from photos with any sort of fidelity.

*Edit* fixed spelling and adding:

IWEM's photo HU 104427 is of the battle-damaged Exeter arriving in Plymouth. The two boats visible on the starboard side do not match any of the craft available from Black Cat Models or Micro Master at this time. One plan has two different boats (a 35' motor pinnace aft and a 32' Life cutter forward) but the two in the linked photo appear the same. Could this be a 35' motor pinnace, and is there a good reference for RN boats in WWi and WWII?

Related but a bit different - any idea what size of rafts Exeter Carried during the battle?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:01 am 
Tracy,

No disrespect but I see three boats in the linked photograph. The one below the davit forward of the fore funnel is a 32ft cutter: usually shown on the official drawings as a "32ft life cutter." One aft of that and appearing darker in colour is; if one uses the drawing of HMS YORK in Raven and Roberts' "British Cruisers of World War II," theoretically a 35ft motor boat. The one abaft it is, if one uses Raven and Roberts again, a 30ft motor pinnace. I am not an EXETER "fan," however, I do believe that some people have been carrying out deeper research on the ship. I suggest that you try and contact them via an "EXETER" website and see what they have.

There is nothing of value in Randall Tonks' "Profile" on the ship.

Regarding the ships' boats of the Royal Navy in the round: I am moderately familiar with the more well-known ones but the best source is the National Maritime Museum, though I know from experience that the record will not be complete (at least as far as I went into the matter). As far as I know, there is only one good Reference on the subject: WE May's "Ships Boats of the Royal Navy" (use that information as a "starter"), however it "stops" around the turn of the 19th/20th Century. There is no modern work that covers the subject, though one is probably needed but would it interest a publisher?

I seem to recall that there is a small amount of information on Carley rafts in one of the 1951 editions of the Manual of Seamanship, otherwise you will have to use photogramatic (sic?) interpretation. Regarding those carried by the ship at "River Plate:" I would advise caution unless someone can provide evidence but I see none in the photographs of the ship taken at, or near the time.

I fear that the above will be of little "comfort" to you but may give a couple of slim "leads."


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:11 am 
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Here are several ‘close-ups’ of Exeter's boats just post the time frame in Tracy's question. As can be seen in one (#1, taken while still at sea on her way back from the Falklands) there are four along the starboard side, but upon arrival at Plymouth (#2, 3, 4) only three appear to be there. Unfortunately I have no really clear photo of the boat adjacent to the bridge superstructure to add though.


Attachments:
Exeter-boats-1.jpg
Exeter-boats-1.jpg [ 216.95 KiB | Viewed 1876 times ]
Exeter-boats-2.jpg
Exeter-boats-2.jpg [ 114.66 KiB | Viewed 1876 times ]
Exeter-boats-3.jpg
Exeter-boats-3.jpg [ 150.75 KiB | Viewed 1876 times ]
Exeter-boats-4.jpg
Exeter-boats-4.jpg [ 223.89 KiB | Viewed 1876 times ]

_________________
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:19 am 
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Guest wrote:
Regarding the ships' boats of the Royal Navy in the round: I am moderately familiar with the more well-known ones but the best source is the National Maritime Museum, though I know from experience that the record will not be complete (at least as far as I went into the matter). As far as I know, there is only one good Reference on the subject: WE May's "Ships Boats of the Royal Navy" (use that information as a "starter"), however it "stops" around the turn of the 19th/20th Century. There is no modern work that covers the subject, though one is probably needed but would it interest a publisher?


I am not aware of a volume like May for the first half the the 20th century. I have a fairly lengthy list compiled of all types that I know, some of them drawn by John Lambert, but a comprehensive list is a mer a boire. Seaforth Publishing expressed in interest in doing a boats volume (mainly Lambert's drawings), provided someone would write it. My first address to find such a person would be the NMM, in particular the boat house. Lambert had a large collection of drawings other than his own work and would occasionally slip in a copy of some variant I was looking for. I wonder where all that material is now.

Guest wrote:
I seem to recall that there is a small amount of information on Carley rafts in one of the 1951 editions of the Manual of Seamanship, otherwise you will have to use photogramatic (sic?) interpretation. Regarding those carried by the ship at "River Plate:" I would advise caution unless someone can provide evidence but I see none in the photographs of the ship taken at, or near the time.


Carley floats. Type, dimensions, tube diameter:

5 3ft 6in x 6 ft 12in
6 3ft 9in x 6ft 6in 13in
7 4ft x 7ft 14in
8 4ft 6in x 7ft 6in 14in
19 5ft x 8ft 14.5in
20 5ft x 10ft 15.5in
14 6ft x 10ft 16in
15 6ft6in x 10ft6in 17in
16 7ft x 12ft 18in
17 8ft x 12ft 19in
18 9ft x 14ft 20in
From: Ashton, J., Challenor, C., & Courtney, 1993, R.C.H., The scientific investigation of a Carley float at the Australian War Memorial, Technical Papers of the Australian War Memorial, No 1

Attachment:
35ftMotorPinnace.jpg


Re Exeter: the small boats with the cabins both look a 35ft motor pinnace (for each type many variants are often found making it ever more difficult to classify them, some unique to a specific ship). Pics at the NH show a variety of boat compliments, but at one pic with two 35ft pinnaces, both without a center cabin?

The more forward one: looks like a 32ft cutter to me.

(see also: https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/NH-60000/NH-60807.html)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:56 am 
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Well, here is another photo taken approximately nine months prior to the Graf Spee action. The two boats in the center certainly look somewhat different to the ones in my above post. The more forward of the two looking more like the schematic in EJ's post.


Attachments:
HMS-Exeter-27th-Feb-1939-Coco-Solo-Panama-CROP.jpg
HMS-Exeter-27th-Feb-1939-Coco-Solo-Panama-CROP.jpg [ 251.42 KiB | Viewed 1871 times ]

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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