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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:34 pm 
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Location: Huntington Beach, CA 92646-5446
Matt/Taskforce48,
Please tell/show me more about the two 1/350 items that you posted July 5 on page 55 of this subject - the Gleaves class square bridge and square bridge with 20mm tub. Prices? I want to vary the look of my Dragon and Cyber-Hobby Benson and Gleaves class kits by replacing the round bridges with square.
Thank you.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:47 am 
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Hi, Matt
Thanks for your reply on the pm mail. I look forward to your January update.
R/David


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:10 am 
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A note for those who are building a 1941 King Board modified Gleaves class destroyer...

You can get the Kraken update set for the after deck house roof with the proper .50 cal machine gun layout, it comes with the proper splinter shields to add to the pilothouse roof as well...

But for the MG positions on the O1 deck level and the midships deckhouse opposite the aft funnel, your going to have to remove the existing 20mm gun tubs from parts A8 and B1 and replace them with .50 cal splinter shields... On part A8 they should be in the same spot as the 20's but the shield is flush with the bulkhead underneath... On part B1 the MG is mounted just inside the deck edge and the splinter shield extends over the main deck about half the distance the 20mm shield does....

Here is a photo of the USS Woolsey DD437 that shows this.... (I believe this is a pic that Rick Davis posted earlier in the thread)
Attachment:
zDD437USS Woolsey x10-2Feb42lr.jpg
zDD437USS Woolsey x10-2Feb42lr.jpg [ 123.95 KiB | Viewed 906 times ]


And here are the two kit parts that need modification....
Attachment:
DCP_2861.JPG
DCP_2861.JPG [ 171.19 KiB | Viewed 906 times ]


Part A8 on the left and B1 on the right.... I haven't determined if the slight pedestal extensions on part A8 for the 20mm's need to come off yet as well but I will advise when I get there....

EG


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:23 pm 
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Actually, with as many variations that DML made, there is a version of the two 20-mm/50-cal MGs forward of the bridge that has tubs that don't extend past the edge of the deck. Sprue "M" that came with BENSON (and maybe some of the GLEAVES class kits) kits, meets that configuration. However, the bulwark wall doesn't go far enough around to where it should to represent the initial King Board mods. Some fitting may be needed for the early bridges however to fit.

Attachment:
Sprue-M.jpg
Sprue-M.jpg [ 106.84 KiB | Viewed 871 times ]


I don't remember which kits (without going through all the kits I have to fully document), will have this sprue. I do know that DML included some sprues for only a few parts in many of their BENSON-GLEAVES class kits. Two kits right off the top of my head that have this sprue are the BENSON 1945 (this deck isn't needed for that kit so is surplus), and the LAFFEY (1942) kits. The GLEAVES 1942 kits don't appear to have sprue "M".

Also, the BENSON 1940 kit has a deck for two 50-cal MG's forward of the bridge and the two waist 50-cal MG's on the midship deckhouse without the bulwarks as sprue "K". Also, unsure without studying images, but I think that sprue "B" may well be close for the midship deckhouse with the bulwarks.

Aside note; The USN found that they needed to move these 20-mm gun positions outboard (twice) to get better forward arcs past the 52 mount. The bulwarks for the 50-cal and 20-mm guns were basically the same diameter. I found drawings in the King Board files that had both as being 10-ft (20-mm) or 11-ft (50-cal MG depending on Mk installed) diameter working circles dictating the bulwark diameter. This surprised me, I figured the 20-mm guns would have a larger working circle? However, in some cases 12-ft diameter was desired. Confusing, yes.

I have so many BENSON-GLEAVES class units that I'm working on in parallel, that I found it easier to put most of the sprues in one box and hunt for parts I need with a particular variant. Hence I have a lot of spares - maybe. :smallsmile:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:23 pm 
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Thanks Rick,

The Livermore '42 doesn't have Sprue M, but then when you look at that sprue, isn't M10 a squared off bridge variant?

The raised section for the next level up is square not round...

A10 has the curved bridge front which we do need for an early Gleaves.....

I'm working on a scratch built solution, but going to wait until Matt gets back to me on a question I asked him....

Another fit I can't do out of the box is the 9 20mm setup I don't have the tub for the starboard side forward stack. (part B19 would have to be modified for the 4 20's there)

I can do the 6 20's configuration and the configuration with the 1.1 gun mount.. (they give 2 sprue D's for 12 20mm guns)

It gets confusing for sure and takes a bit of study to get an idea of what you can represent out of the box.... But for sure you can't do a 12 .50 cal setup....

I think right now there is a half a dozen different early variants you can build right out of the box or with a little bit of modding.....

Nice kit, just a hair more engineering and they could have made a complete kit to model any early variant, it wouldn't have taken much....

And comparing the Woolsey's .50 cal config in that pic with pics I've seen of the Gwin, their .50 cal setups are identical..... there are lots of differences between the two ships, but the King Board mod is the same


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:52 am 
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No it isn't for a "Square-Bridge" unit. Early on the building of the Repeat- BENSON-GLEAVES classes, the lowest level of the bridge had the front "face" squared-off to ease construction and to provide more room for the 20-mm guns. This "flat-face" lower bridge was one of the options available on the DML BENSON-GLEAVES class units kits. That is why I said you may need to "modify" this deck to fit the round face lower bridge deckhouse.

Image

Matt makes the conversion set for the nine 20-mm configuration for the 1/350 scale GLEAVES class kits. Including the single 20-mm "tub" replacing the starboard boat.

... https://krakenhobbies.com/shop/ols/prod ... -dd433-436 ...

The BENSON-GLEAVES dual class units have a large number of variations throughout their WWII career. Between the builder's variations (Beth-Sldg had their own way to do things with the BENSON class), upgrade changes happening as the units were being built, armament mods as the war progressed, and other changes to sensor suites, there are a lot of different configurations to choose from. It wouldn't be cost effective to try and include versions parts in one kit. With all the versions that DML did do, you can get to many of the different versions. However, the BENSON 1945 kit has most ALL of the various sprues used in all the kits.

Also, the DesDiv 22 units once they moved to the Pacific, had a separate configuration path than the units stationed in the Atlantic. Even the Pacific based Repeat BENSON-GLEAVES units had some unique modifications not seen in the Atlantic.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:13 am 
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Ok Thanks for clarifying that Rick,

Unlike you studying all the different ship modifications for many years, I'm only interested in the modifications to the USS Gwin up to April 18th '42... Probably never get it completely correct but want to come as close as I can...

Matt told me about the 9 gun update and it looks gorgeous.... Perfect for that after Midway configuration that three of them had for their short histories... (and saves one from having to modify the aft deck house roof again for the 4 20mm's)

Matt's a great guy as well....

I've already seen a different configuration on the pilot house splinter shields in DesDiv 22 ships as well, the Monssen had hers slightly outboard of where the Gwin had hers. The Gwin's pilot house splinter shields were just inside the railing on the pilot house top, (the canvas dodgers show an unbroken line the same as the Woolsey's as they cross in front of the shield) while the Monssen's were overhanging the pilot house edge and the railings terminate against it....

Your absolutely right, the differences are there even between ships built to the same plans but in a different yard...

The variations must be endless...

I do got a question... do you have any detail shots or images of the midships, aft stack .50 install from a closer, lower angle, there is a triangular support structure underneath in the Woolsey pic but it's too indistinct to really see in detail.... Of course the Gwin's structure may be a bit different so I'm asking, I have an idea of what I'm going to do based upon that Woolsey pic, but I need more detail and sorta confirmation on what I'm seeing... (just in case my mk1 eyeballs are playing tricks)

I know they built it that way and took the photo that way just to make it more difficult on me today..... {chuckle}


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:25 pm 
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All four units of DesDiv 22 had the nine 20-mm mod done. USS GRAYSON (DD-435) was modified at MINY in May-June 1942, along with other work. The other three were modified at PHNY as you say after the Battle of Midway; USS GWIN (DD-433) and USS MONSSEN (DD-436) 26 June to 2 July 1942, and finally USS MEREDITH 6 to 15 August 1942.

As for Midships details WHILE any of the original group of GLEAVES class units had 50-cal MG's, these are about the best I have (several other views taken at Boston in stream on a typical cloudy Boston day, that show little closeup details), three of USS KEARNY and one of USS MEREDITH;

Image

Image

Image

Image

Plus, here is a close-crop of this area from another photo taken of USS WOOLSEY (DD-437) at the same February 1942, alongside the oiler, as the one you referenced. As you can see, she had collision damage in the area, so I don't know exactly what you are asking about "triangular" support structure. There is a triangular brace further aft that helps support the aft torpedo tubes mount. (The area under the aft torpedo tubes (and the forward TT mounts well) is a non-structural area open for uptakes to the stacks. So the braces provide support out to sounder structural under the deck.)

Image


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:23 am 
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Thanks Rick, those pics really are helping me decide what I'm going to do....

It looks like even that installation was subject to the different needs of the ship at different time and executed differently by different yards....

Like that central stanchion with the three flat plates kinda in the middle of the MG platform on the Kearney (and the Monssen as well) that isn't present on the Meredith, (or Woolsey for that matter) which have two pipe stanchions and an electrical conduit arrayed along the outside edge of the MG platform...

The Meredith and Woolsey I believe were built at Boston, as was the Gwin which was laid down the same day as the Meredith in the adjoining slipway... (they were built right next to each other using the same supervisor of construction to the exact same plans)

So without further investigation, I'm going to go with the images of the Meredith and Woolsey as they seem to match the details of Gwin much closer with the Meredith being an absolute sister kinda pushes the preponderance of evidence that way....

Thanks for all your help....

You Sir, are a godsend to modelers....


Last edited by Egilman on Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:29 am 
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Egilman, don't swell his head too much or he'll think he is a god.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:22 pm 
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DavidP wrote:
Egilman, don't swell his head too much or he'll think he is a god.

I'm sure he has plenty of pins..... (not that he's ever needed to use one) Besides, he's earned it....


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:37 pm 
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Ok gots another question...

K-guns, when did the King board modified Gleaves receive them and where were they located.... The Livermore Kit has them in the wrong places for this fit?

The Gwin had 4 K-guns... I'm having trouble pinning down where they were located... The aft two were abreast the #3 mount P/S, the forward two were either P/S under the middle .50 cal splinter shield or at the forward end of the aft deckhouse P/S....

I've looked through the books and where isn't much on this location out there for the early Gleaves...

EG


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:29 am 
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Ok, still looking for images of the K-gun installations on the Desdiv-22 units that when to the pacific with the Hornet....

The only thing I've found that is definitive is this shot....
Attachment:
DCP_2799 USS Gwin K-guns Starboard Side.jpg
DCP_2799 USS Gwin K-guns Starboard Side.jpg [ 290.57 KiB | Viewed 435 times ]


Which shows no K-Guns on the starboard side... (it is of course a crop of this shot)
Attachment:
zDD433 Uss Gwin 1942-12-19.jpg
zDD433 Uss Gwin 1942-12-19.jpg [ 174.55 KiB | Viewed 434 times ]


This shot is when she was tied up just after her arrival at MINY December 19th, 1942 for repairs to battle damage suffered during the second naval battle of Guadalcanal...

It's clear there are no K-Guns on her starboard side......

So the question now becomes, Did she have them on the doolittle raid the previous april? She clearly doesn't have them five months later.... She had no yard periods after her conversion to 9 20mm's after midway and was in continuous service in and around Guadalcanal afterwards....


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:38 pm 
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USS GWIN did have K-Guns installed in that photo and highly likely during the Doolittle Raid. A high priority mod for the original groups of BENSON and GLEAVES class destroyers (DD-421 through 444) was removing the Y-Gun and installing K-Guns (four to six).

In the 15 June 1942 Armament Summary Update (update reports always lagged the date work actually was completed), USS GWIN and USS MONSSEN are both listed as having FOUR DCT's (Depth Charge Throwers), plus MONSSEN is listed as having a Y-Gun (on the fantail) (may have already been removed removed and not reported) and USS MEREDITH and USS GRAYSON had six DCT's (later reduced to four).

A better close crop view that I have annotated showing the K-Gun Throwers w/o depth charges were located. The K-guns by themselves don't show up very well in photos w/o the depth charges in place. Also, as an aside, it was common practice all through WWII, that when a ship would be heading back to the West Coast, valuable equipment would be stripped off (mostly by a tender) to be used as spares for other ships.

Image

Plus here is a view of "Likely" USS GWIN (I know it is GWIN from her drop tracks) and USS MONSSEN at Pearl Harbor anchorage alongside a tender on 12 July 1942 after they had the none 20-mm mod done. Hard to see the K-Guns, but it is clear that there are NO Y-Guns. Also, note that GWIN has longer depth charge drop tracks on her fantail than her sister and actually longer that all her DesDiv 22 sisters.

Image

Also, I forgot about this image, that may help you with your GWIN build, It is a stern view of GWIN dated on 30 July 1942. This view shows a partial of her portside.

Image


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:55 pm 
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Rick E Davis wrote:
USS GWIN did have K-Guns installed in that photo and highly likely during the Doolittle Raid. A high priority mod for the original groups of BENSON and GLEAVES class destroyers (DD-421 through 444) was removing the Y-Gun and installing K-Guns (four to six).


That's what I thought, but was looking for confirmation, something gave me the impression they weren't there... Also, the Livermore kit when using the last four K-gun positions on the deck, has them almost exactly where they need to be I'm happy to report, the sternward pair are abreast the #3 mount and the forward pair should be just behind and partially under the after machine gun splinter shield... Makes for an awful crowded deck at that location though...... The splinter shield stanchions under that aft shield are going to take some figuring... (replace the kit davits which are too tall with PE)

Rick E Davis wrote:
In the 15 June 1942 Armament Summary Update (update reports always lagged the date work actually was completed), USS GWIN and USS MONSSEN are both listed as having FOUR DCT's (Depth Charge Throwers), plus MONSSEN is listed as having a Y-Gun (on the fantail) (may have already been removed removed and not reported) and USS MEREDITH and USS GRAYSON had six DCT's (later reduced to four).


I have an image that shows the Monssen's Y-Gun, aft the #4 5"gun which was taken just before they left so she was carrying it during the raid... The same pic shows no K-guns though... Probably the caption is wrong showing an earlier fit than April '42....

Rick E Davis wrote:
A better close crop view that I have annotated showing the K-Gun Throwers w/o depth charges were located. The K-guns by themselves don't show up very well in photos w/o the depth charges in place. Also, as an aside, it was common practice all through WWII, that when a ship would be heading back to the West Coast, valuable equipment would be stripped off (mostly by a tender) to be used as spares for other ships.

Image


I took a look at that pic again after leaving it for a while and I can pick out the muzzles of the tubes, And yeah those can only be K-guns... That comes from the same image I have, but at a much higher resolution.... I'm gonna take that and see if I can't adjust it to pick out more details

Rick E Davis wrote:
Plus here is a view of "Likely" USS GWIN (I know it is GWIN from her drop tracks) and USS MONSSEN at Pearl Harbor anchorage alongside a tender on 12 July 1942 after they had the none 20-mm mod done. Hard to see the K-Guns, but it is clear that there are NO Y-Guns. Also, note that GWIN has longer depth charge drop tracks on her fantail than her sister and actually longer that all her DesDiv 22 sisters.

Image


Thanks for that, I was under the impression that the Monssen lost her Y-Gun after the raid and the rest lost them before they left Norfolk, that pic confirms this for sure..... You've posted that image before but I didn't realize it's import till now.... I was aware of the longer 10 charge racks rather than the standard 7 charge racks, this image definitely shows that as well.... A little fuzzy but it confirms some details in the right time frame.....

Rick E Davis wrote:
Also, I forgot about this image, that may help you with your GWIN build, It is a stern view of GWIN dated on 30 July 1942. This view shows a partial of her portside.

Image


WONDERFUL! That image fills in my missing piece on the camo scheme, all the rest of the shots gives the impression she had three color layers around the stern, this shows clearly that she didn't, she had a Navy Blue stern, the Ocean Grey only wraps partially around the sides.... That's the final piece I needed to make the Hull pattern accurate!!! Easy fix, THANK YOU!!!! (of course sitting in my water base will hide most of it, her stern is a bit low in the water in that pic) But it's the missing piece Yea Team!!!!

Thank You Very Much Rick, This wouldn't be anywhere near as accurate without all your help....


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:54 am 
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If there was any doubt as to those tubes being K-guns....

Attachment:
zDD433 Uss Gwin 1942-12-19 crop.jpg
zDD433 Uss Gwin 1942-12-19 crop.jpg [ 363.04 KiB | Viewed 356 times ]


Bumping the Contrast 50% more....

Attachment:
zDD433 Uss Gwin 1942-12-19 crop High contrast.jpg
zDD433 Uss Gwin 1942-12-19 crop High contrast.jpg [ 196.58 KiB | Viewed 356 times ]


Now you can see the reload stanchions as well....

No question those are K-guns..... Although the Davits are missing, but, given the splinter damage surrounding the area, I would surmise they were removed as being unsalvageable.....

I wish I had your images my friend.... the detail available is incredible....

EG


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:12 pm 
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I don't know if there is splinter damage in that area or not. It does appear that they may have touched up areas that needed some paint. The practice was to "de-ammo" a ship before starting major repairs or mods. There could have been damage from a near-miss not documented in this photo or the others in the group. The overall view shows the places where she received hits.

A side note on this image. I scanned this photo from the original negative and was part of a large group of onboard post-damage/arrival at yard photos. I didn't scan the below decks damage views. Frankly below decks damage photos are hard to make heads or tails of without a tour guide. :scratch:

This photo and the other photos weren't among the prints in the 19-LCM folders for USS GWIN. NARA has a collection of microfilm rolls called 19-Z (something like 100+ rolls) with images of ALL(?) the 19-N photos from the BuShips photo collection at least to the end of WWII. They are "MORE OR LESS" in chronological order ... but actually in the order they were TURNED-IN to BuShips. Going through these microfilm rolls can and does turn up many "missing" prints in 19-LCM folders. Also, can confirm that particular ships didn't have photos taken during completion and/or certain refits as was SUPPOSE to be done. I was really glad to find this image. It is difficult to determine which and when the Ms 12R(mod) camo painted ships were repainted to Ms 21 (if at all prior to being loss in some cases). USS GWIN was one of those I had no idea if she had been repainted prior to the battle where she got this damage. I try to go through at least one of these microfilm rolls on each NARA trip. But, they are laborious going through if you have ever gone through microfilm before, you know what I mean.

It is different scanning a B&W negative verse a print from the same negative. The darkroom techs could adjust the image for a better contrast view if the negative is on the dark side. When I scan prints or negatives, I scan them as is. I have adjusted images to gain details for my own use. Your adjustments show that much can be gained by "playing" with the contrast.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:32 pm 
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Thanks Rick,

It looks like splinter damage that has been painted over to me, but without close-ups, not definitive enough to say either way.... So I'll go with what it looks like to me.... When she left the battle area after being ordered to retire, she had a fire on the stern around the after deck house from depth charges that had been busted open and set afire, looking at the stern racks they appear undamaged but that starboard view surely looks like it was fire damaged to me... (but I wasn't there and the after action report is less than clear) So it's a guesstimation on my part....

It's been a long time since I was at the archives but yes I remember the microfilm and the tedious job of going through them for good images of what you want.... For modeling purposes interior damage shots have little use.....

The first image is adjusted in Gimp using the Brightness/Contrast tool on the Colors menu... once the image is loaded I bump the brightness 75% then bring up the contrast to see what pops out of the image.... If I get some sharp details showing I will export into an adjusted image while it still looks like a normal photo, then re-load it and do a 50/50 bump again for high contrast and re-exporting it as long as it hasn't blown out... (just below the blow out level)

The two adjusted images show the results of the process... with a decent resolution image it can be like night and day as to what they reveal....

Given the above for example, The Livermore kit has two ventilator stacks P/S right behind the forward K-guns tight to the side bulkheads of the after deckhouse, clearly, they aren't present on the Gwin, also another thing about the kits K-gun layout, the reload stanchions are mounted towards the stern, (which is correct for the Livermore) when on the Gwin, the images clearly show that they are mounted towards the bow side of the K-gun..... A small but important distinction for an accurate representation.... That's the importance of doing your research, different periods and different ships could be a lot different in the small details....

Thanks for the imagery my friend, it's been a real boon....

EG


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:27 pm 
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Hi, Matt. Have you completed your changes to the Gleaves class square bridges (p. 55, 05JUL2020)? Thanks


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