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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:21 pm 
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Thanks for sharing that article, Egilman. Sums it all up pretty well, though apparently it's vastly more common in texting circles - which I seldom do either, so the few people I've seen do it in e-mails or message board posts really stand out to me. The biggest surprise is that I would never have made the association with older individuals being more prone to ellipsis use than younger ones!

On the subject of the Hammondsport photo, have any thoughts? I suppose there might be a cloud casting a shadow over the Arizona's mainmast; but barring that, both the darkness and the more neutral color tone relative to the Hammondsport's definite blue tone really lends to 5-D. Though I have heard the argument that Arizona was only partially re-painted as of Dec. 7, and maybe the mainmast and boat cranes hadn't been done yet?

- Sean F.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:21 pm 
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Ron Smith found and read to me over the phone about 12-14 years ago excerpts from a memo from CINCPAC (Kimmel) stating that battleships were to keep enough 5-D for one complete painting of the hull below the main deck and turn the rest in. At that point ships were to paint as needed above the main deck in either 5-O or 5-S - this means that it could have been just an individual bulkhead or piece of equipment. It was described as a modified Measure 2.

Ron got fed up with all of the negative attention from the controversy and shipped his paper copies to me when he moved a number of years back, but one of the boxes never arrived and I don't have an actual copy of that document, so it's not something I stand behind. I have looked but not found a copy yet, so it's up to the reader to decide what they want to put faith in. But if true, it could explain why sections of some ships look lighter than others.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:36 pm 
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SeanF wrote:
Thanks for sharing that article, Egilman. Sums it all up pretty well, though apparently it's vastly more common in texting circles - which I seldom do either, so the few people I've seen do it in e-mails or message board posts really stand out to me. The biggest surprise is that I would never have made the association with older individuals being more prone to ellipsis use than younger ones!

On the subject of the Hammondsport photo, have any thoughts? I suppose there might be a cloud casting a shadow over the Arizona's mainmast; but barring that, both the darkness and the more neutral color tone relative to the Hammondsport's definite blue tone really lends to 5-D. Though I have heard the argument that Arizona was only partially re-painted as of Dec. 7, and maybe the mainmast and boat cranes hadn't been done yet?

- Sean F.


I don't know, Sean, it just seems natural to me, besides I'm always thinking while I type so according to the article I'm one of those where everything types represents an incomplete thought... And it is much more common than not.... Another example of how the internet and it's capabilities are upturning all the old rules of communication....

As far as the Hammondsport, she is clearly in 5-N the pic dates to June-July '42, and the colors on the AZ in the background match pretty closely to the Hammondsport..... but we know the AZ was never in 5-N... We also have picture proof of a ship we know was in 5-D appearing quite blue, the USS California.... We also know that the 5-D used on the Pacflt was composite 5-D, mixed from standard navy grey and blue-black tinting paste to use up the large quantities of standard pre-war navy grey..... Which chalked and faded rather quickly.... and could be the reason that aged 5-D photographs as dark blue.... Tinting pastes are very powerful colorants....

On the other hand we have crewmembers reporting that she was repainted, at least the areas they were responsible for being painted as blue... and that large quantities of said blue paint were loaded on the ship around the time of her collision repair... one crew member, Lauren Bruener called it "Mediterraneen Blue" (which was never a color used on a US Navy ship) and when offered samples of the colors actually painted on the ships picked out 5-S as the color....

The order or memo which Tracy talks about, keeping enough 5-D for one hull repaint and then substituting 5-S for 5-D as quantities on hand allowed I have actually read... And it explains how officially that all the battleships, (some of which were clearly in 5-S) maintained their Measure 2 scheme and still be in 5-S....

There is no "official" document that states such though, and the only evidence we have after the fact that clearly shows the AZ's color are the life magazine photos of Admiral Radfords flag raisings on the AZ ten years after the fact which clearly and unabashedly show her in bright blue.... so bright in fact that it is hard to argue color shift since the greens are green the reds are clearly reds the white uniforms are white with no tingeing of blue...

The preponderance of evidence leans strongly to the idea that the AZ at some point was repainted in 5-S and was very fresh at the time of the attack...

Most people read this preponderance the same way my logical mind does... but like Tracy and Rick and Mr Doyle and most of the people who have done the deep dive into the archives, without any document directly on point, it can't be said beyond a shadow of doubt....

But we have enough in my opinion that I have changed my opinion to she was in 5-S. The last pic I have seen that has her dark is the one when she is in drydock being repaired in November, there is the pic of her returning from her gunnery practice two days before the attack December 5th, in the harbor channel, and has her in much lighter shades.....

Not a smoking gun I know, but enough to change my opinion....

People who know a whole lot more than me have come to the same conclusion, as evidenced by the color of the "official" model at the memorial.. And I've read an oral account of one of the survivors when visiting and seeing that model brought tears to his eyes and a comment that "they finally got it right"

My opinion is that she was in a fresh coat of blue in Ms.2 scheme retaining her haze grey tops the day of the attack... Not an absolute, and everyone is free to come to the conclusion they wish, but to me the weight of the evidence we do have, agrees with this view...

I hope that clarifies my thoughts on the matter....


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:31 pm 
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Hi,
this is my first post here. After I went through all this thread and its relative thread Color of Battleships at Pearl Harbor http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=305334 I decided to register here. I am thankful for more than 15 years of information, photos, arguments about USS Arizona.

Here at http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=12942&start=2100#p747858 was posted this picture:
Image
There is sunny day, the sun is high above and seems to be at one or two o'clock, at least when looking at the concrete wall in the foreground. I do not know whether Arizona is in parallel with this wall - if yes then sun should be at here starboard side. In such cases the main gun turrets usually (almost always) look brighter than barbettes, hull etc.
However, I am a bit confused with the appearance of the part of the hull that is visible - it is brighter than barbette and the main gun turrets.
It is more apparent at this version of the same photo:
Image

Finally, apologize, please, my English, it is not my native language.
Misos


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:58 pm 
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Hi Misos - welcome aboard!

I suspect Arizona's hull paint was not repainted yet.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:09 am 
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Hi Misos...

Welcome to the forum....

Yeah that the famous pick of AZ in drydock to repair her damage from a collision with the USS Oklahoma the week previous.... She was painted in Ms. 1, 5-D dark grey scheme with 5-L light grey tops....

Of that there is no question..... Light and photography does funny things to the Composite 5-D paint they were using..... In color images of known 5-D it can actually appear blue depending on light, age and other factors...

I do believe that is the last known pic of Arizona in 5-D third week of November 1941...... There is a lot of evidence that says she was repainted afterwards into Ms. 1 5-S Sea Blue retaining her 5-L tops just prior to her last sortie (gunnery practice) before the attack at the beginning of December.... But no hard document/smoking gun saying such beyond any doubt.....

It's been a real tough debate over the years I guess that's why the other topic was created, to keep this thread for the ship itself, and use the other for the color discussion....

Lots of info here, and a lot of people that know more than most have forgotten....

Feel free to ask any questions you might have my friend, if there is an answer you will probably get it here... (or enough information to figure it out for yourself if there isn't a direct answer)

EG


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:22 pm 
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I recall a few years back reading Ron Smith arguing that same November '41 photo as proof that she was already repainted into 5-S, being not dark enough to be 5-D - observing that the paint chips reveal 5-D to be "damn near black". However, while some B&W photos bear out this extreme darkness, others do not - for a whole variety of reasons and no need to cover them again now.

All the documentary evidence is in place that says Arizona could have been repainted into 5-S by the time of December 7. Agreed, and no argument from me on this point.

For me, the smoking gun is the early '42 picture that Rick E. Davis posted, with USS Hammondsport and USS Arizona in the same frame and in original color. Whether Hammondsport is in 5-S or 5-N, whether the photo is blue-shifted or not, apples-to-apples within the same photo Arizona is notably both darker and more neutral-toned than Hammondsport's definitive blue. I'm convinced that even though Arizona could have been repainted into 5-S, she was, in fact, not.

- Sean F.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:36 pm 
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That's why the other topic was created Sean, there are still opinions going both ways....

There's a lot of anecdotal evidence pointing to her being in 5-S that cannot be dismissed....

And a great deal of photographic evidence that say it as well.... (that a lot of different explanations have been offered to explain why she appears very bright blue in some excellent photography both still and moving rather than black, very dark faded grey or very dark blue)

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I doubt we will ever know the truth at this late date....

Interesting that the historians at the Pearl Harbor center consider her to have been blue....

One thing is true, she wasn't blue very long.....

But we should leave that discussion over in the Camouflage area under the Colors of the ships at Pearl, and not bring it up here...

As far as the USS Hammondsport photo? the Arizona's #3 turret sides clearly photographed as bright blue, coupled with the Life photos in the '50's, more than ten years after the battle, is my smoking gun.... Add to that the survivors testimony that they repainted her in blue?

My opinion is she was blue brother..... (and as anything in modeling, build her as you envision her to be, Ms.1 5-D or 5-S with 5-L tops there is evidence that points to both as accurate)


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:44 am 
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So, Jon sent me two cage masts intended for Tom's ancient Arizona's kit. I'm planning on grabbing Black Cat Models 5"/51's and Mark 11 3" guns since the old white metal blob things are terrible. The foremast does have to be cut down, which won't be a problem.

As an aside, anyone have plans for the '21 (or as-built) vessel?


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Arizona Dry.jpg
Arizona Dry.jpg [ 324.82 KiB | Viewed 3426 times ]
Cage Masts.jpg
Cage Masts.jpg [ 322.65 KiB | Viewed 3426 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:19 am 
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Interesting info about the piece of USS Arizona exhibited at Pearl Harbor Aviation Museum, on Ford Island in Pearl Harbor.

Is it the only piece there? Will they exhibit also another pieces? Seems that there is still USS Arizona wreckage at Waipio Point, PH and http://ussarizonafacts.org/remnant1.htm

I wonder if one could recognize the shade of the paint on the piece of the USS Arizona hull.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:39 pm 
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66misos wrote:
Interesting info about the piece of USS Arizona exhibited at Pearl Harbor Aviation Museum, on Ford Island in Pearl Harbor.

Is it the only piece there? Will they exhibit also another pieces? Seems that there is still USS Arizona wreckage at Waipio Point, PH and ussarizonafacts.org

I wonder if one could recognize the shade of the paint on the piece of the USS Arizona hull.


Misos,

Already been checked several times my friend, last time I believe was in 2008, To be honest, no one really cared up until 15 years or so ago.... After 80 years no paint will remain on steel left out in the weather especially a marine environment.... The remains at Waipio are nothing but scraps of rusty metal at this point...

The part your linking to at the Arizona state capitol museum isn't a part of the hull, its a part of the superstructure, probably part of a vent stack or bulkhead given the conduit clips along the trim at the top and the snap link along the left edge.... There is the remnants of a waterline along the bottom as well so it was a part that was sticking out of the water at one point.... which means it couldn't have been a hull piece as within a month the hull had settled into the mud and was completely under water....

But then I'm sure that most people do not understand the differences between hull and superstructure or have our level of knowledge....

EG


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:05 pm 
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Hi Egilman,
thank you for your response. Here at WSJ is another article about the PH wreckage with the picture described: "A piece of the USS Arizona with scorch marks caused by burning oil.":
Image
Can we still see there light (5-L?) and dark (5-D?) paint?


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:38 pm 
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66misos wrote:
Hi Egilman,
thank you for your response. Here at WSJ is another article about the PH wreckage with the picture described: "A piece of the USS Arizona with scorch marks caused by burning oil.":
Can we still see there light (5-L?) and dark (5-D?) paint?


I highly doubt it, the black along the lower portion more resembles the cruddy surface of metal that was under water, and if that off white look to the upper part is paint it could only be the white lead primer they used when the yard crews were doing a yard maintenance painting..... (full sandblast strip and repaint)

People have gone to Waipio specifically looking to answer this question knowing what they were looking at and said nothing remains of the finish paint...

I don't have access to WSJ so I can't read the article or view the images, so I haven't a clue what they are claiming right wrong or indifferent.... But experience says that most reporters who write such articles don't have a clue....


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:26 pm 
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Chris "Petrolgator"

Those are very good looking cage masts. Unfortunately, I don't know who Jon is. Can you give me some advice on where i can learn more about the product and possibly purchase them?

Thanks,

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:37 pm 
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I'd also be interested in acquiring a set of the cage masts. I have that particular ol' chunk of resin in my stash, too!

- Sean F.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:37 pm 
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Egilman wrote:
if that off white look to the upper part is paint it could only be the white lead primer...

..snip..

People have gone to Waipio specifically looking to answer this question knowing what they were looking at and said nothing remains of the finish paint...


To the first point - it's also possible that this chunk was interior structure in way of the crews galley, casemate guns, and various shops underneath the boat deck. The bulkheads and overhead in these areas were generally white, and the boat deck wreckage would have been a cover for these spaces.

To your second point, National Parks Service Ranger Danny Martinez was one of the main drivers of the Blue paint theory and had at least some access to the wreckage before it was all moved. I would expect that if there was a portion that was undeniable proof he would have had that thing on parade as quick as he could.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:28 am 
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mike powell wrote:
Chris "Petrolgator"

Those are very good looking cage masts. Unfortunately, I don't know who Jon is. Can you give me some advice on where i can learn more about the product and possibly purchase them?

Thanks,

Mike


Jon is the owner of Iron Shipwrights. Search for Commanders Models, Iron Shipwrights is under that corporate umbrella.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:53 pm 
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Tracy White wrote:
To the first point - it's also possible that this chunk was interior structure in way of the crews galley, casemate guns, and various shops underneath the boat deck. The bulkheads and overhead in these areas were generally white, and the boat deck wreckage would have been a cover for these spaces.

To your second point, National Parks Service Ranger Danny Martinez was one of the main drivers of the Blue paint theory and had at least some access to the wreckage before it was all moved. I would expect that if there was a portion that was undeniable proof he would have had that thing on parade as quick as he could.


Thanks Tracy, I never considered that it might be interior paint, the other thing is there is no way to check when the pic was taken either.... Another thing about that pic, on the left edge of the part that looks like waterline crud, you can see where it has flaked off with rusty metal underneath, so what ever it is it is a coating on the surface of the bulkhead...

I had read somewhere a few years ago that Danny Martinez was one of the researchers that expressly went to the Waipio point wreckage to check on paint... I imagine that if they had found some they not only would have it on parade but an encyclopedia's amount of scientific / historical studies to back it up..... {chuckle}

Probably would have only made the arguments worse.....


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:53 pm 
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This is a great look at how much everything forward of the boat cranes was scorched by the flames. I highly doubt that piece is showing 5-L from her superstructure. I think Tracy is spot on with it being an interior piece. Keep in mind also that only the tripod legs had both 5-L and 5-D (S). No superstructure bulkhead had both paints.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:20 pm 
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This video shows the bomb hole on Arizona's port side midships just before the break in the deck that went through the Executive Officers office and exploded in the Meat Locker.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnSDNNgJG80

The blue dots on these plans show roughly where this bomb entered and detonated.
Image

Another bomb supposedly penetrated the deck just aft of the port side gun tub on the main deck.

Image


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