Friedman RN Destroyer & Frigate book is here at last

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Laurence Batchelor
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Friedman RN Destroyer & Frigate book is here at last

Post by Laurence Batchelor »

So my Friedman Royal Navy Destroyer book finally turned up yesterday!

My first scan through and the best way to describe it is its the same format as his RN carrier one in 1990, same size book with the same small ship plans.

The plans generally speaking most of the WW2 are done by Alan Raven and most of the post-war by Dave Baker. Friedman also it seems has used David Brown's work alot also.

I have to say so far I'm not impressed, but what else is there in recent book form out there on this subject? Diddly squat thats what!

Some of the photo's are not professionally done, i.e. the author has taken some of the many RN weapon systems by literally walking around the Explosion musuem at Gosport and snapping away. One on page 147 looks very poor as there are large railings in the way of a Limbo! :mad_1:

One thing I'd already like to pick Dave Baker up on, 'a bibliography to die for' well its only 1 page! :mad_1:

After I've fully read the beast cover to cover I'll perhaps do a detailed review :rolf_3:
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Post by mike mccabe »

Hi Laurence,
Doesn't sound like much of a winner from a modelling point of view, but I think we were told to expect that.

mike
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Post by Terry Pottle »

unfortunately I have to agree, a quick look is not very positive.

photos, which where promised to have never been published before, well where are they? and those which are new, what good are they ? as Lozza says - a nice fence!
plans - not really much new that has not been seen before.
bibliography - mostly that which is already in ones personnel library

maybe what we wanted to see landed in the editors bin !!
all in all a disappointment, can only hope that vol 1 provides more.

anyway I will read through the lot, maybe something will come up

Terry
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Laurence Batchelor
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

One redeeming thing so far is the stuff on the post-war Gallant class destroyers which is better covered than some books I have.

I have to agree with you Terry on photo's many are half of one of the large pages and clearly printed, but they mostly have been all seen before!

Am I right to draw the conclusion naval authors let publishers or their 'helpers' sort the photos and they do the captions at the end just before full printing? If so I wish they would be more creative and not go to the same old places and use the same old photo's.

Also a general tendency I see in this book is if there's a choice of a post-war photo or a wartime one the post-war will be used. To prove the point I see on the O/P class a total of 6 photos used, only one is wartime! :mad_1: I know Alan has some good ones in wartime why were these not used instead?

I assume the general lack of wartime photos is an avoidance of the IWM high photo reproduction costs??? I wish again they would be more creative, I have found many sources in this country for good Royal Navy photographs you just need to get off ones backside and do the work!

Finally on photo's the source is rarely given so assertaining if its IWM, NMM, PRO, WSPL or from private collections is very difficult, most published images are well referenced though it seems e.g. p166.

I know this is volume 2 and this is the 1936 tribals up to the current building type 45's but for the war classes generally I would like to see more photo's from such a renowned author and 2 naval draftsmen/co-authors as these gentlemen are, I did notice some of the Hunt class as new to me though, but that was the exception to the rule.

Onto the bibliography I could have wrote a similar one on RN destroyers and frigates, without doing any of the author's research! About 95% of what is listed I have in my reference library and I'm sure most here do also.
On the unpublished material it would have been more useful if the author followed Langtree's lead in giving the full PRO/NMM/IWM reference number in the bibliography and sub-dividing it via location i.e, what was at the Brass Foundry, what was looked at in Greenwich, what was at Naval Historical Portsmouth and what was a Kew in the PRO, was this not possible as he was working on this book since the early 1990s and couldn't always tie down what came from where?

It sounds like I'm damning this book to shreds, but after such a long wait I expected much better, perhaps some of these problems maybe corrected in Volume 1 if sales of this volume 2 allow it to be published?
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Laurence's "review"

Post by RobinB »

Members of this Board may like to read the comments of Dave Baker and others to Laurence's above comments that he posted on SteelNavy as well as here.

He has promised to read this book properly and thoroughly and then let us have his reasoned comments and views, instead of rushing into print in this fashion.
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Re: Laurence's "review"

Post by Laurence Batchelor »

RobinB wrote:Members of this Board may like to read the comments of Dave Baker and others to Laurence's above comments that he posted on SteelNavy as well as here.

He has promised to read this book properly and thoroughly and then let us have his reasoned comments and views, instead of rushing into print in this fashion.
What's wrong with 1st impressions?

As long as readers don't interpret it as full reviews and see it for what it is 1 person's opinion.

Furthermore I wasn't aware an internet forum qualifies as 'inprint'...
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Re: Laurence's "review"

Post by RNfanDan »

RobinB wrote:Members of this Board may like to read the comments of Dave Baker and others to Laurence's above comments...
I'm confused....what post above, by "Dave Baker"? Was it derogatory, causing its removal by a moderator?
:no_2: Danny DON'T "waterline"...!
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Laurence Batchelor
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Re: Laurence's "review"

Post by Laurence Batchelor »

RNfanDan wrote:
RobinB wrote:Members of this Board may like to read the comments of Dave Baker and others to Laurence's above comments...
I'm confused....what post above, by "Dave Baker"? Was it derogatory, causing its removal by a moderator?
There on the SN boards Dan, I seem to have hit a nerve!
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Re: Laurence's "review"

Post by RNfanDan »

Lozza1981 wrote: There on the SN boards Dan, I seem to have hit a nerve!
Oh, okay....no wonder I didn't get it! That particular venue is no longer included among my shortcuts or favorites lists and, at any rate, will remain so for the foreseeable future.

:eyebrows:
:no_2: Danny DON'T "waterline"...!
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Laurence Batchelor
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Re: Laurence's "review"

Post by Laurence Batchelor »

RNfanDan wrote:
Lozza1981 wrote: There on the SN boards Dan, I seem to have hit a nerve!
Oh, okay....no wonder I didn't get it! That particular venue is no longer included among my shortcuts or favorites lists and, at any rate, will remain so for the foreseeable future.

:eyebrows:
Did you get into an argy bargie there then? :heh:
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Post by Dave Wooley »

I read with great interest Lozza 1981 comments on Norman Frieman's Royal Navy Destroyers book, making the point that the book tends to regurgitate well used pictures. Sadly these days there are very few unpublished pictures to be had and the cost to the publisher in publishing rights for new material from any source, assuming it's available is, quite frankly outrageous. Having been there I know how difficult it is.
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Re: Laurence's "review"

Post by RNfanDan »

Lozza1981 wrote: Did you get into an argy bargie there then? :heh:
No, other than those I've regretably been mired in, previously. I have just today broken my abstinence from there, temporarily...hoping to gain some reasoned reaction from my effort to douse a potential fire, this morning.

At any rate, I'm keeping both my comments about that other venue and the topics posted there, free of any perceived ill will, here at MW. I find this effort easiest, by restricting my time spent there. 'Nuff said?

:cool_2:
:no_2: Danny DON'T "waterline"...!
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Laurence Batchelor
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Re: Laurence's "review"

Post by Laurence Batchelor »

RNfanDan wrote:
Lozza1981 wrote: Did you get into an argy bargie there then? :heh:
No, other than those I've regretably been mired in, previously. I have just today broken my abstinence from there, temporarily...hoping to gain some reasoned reaction from my effort to douse a potential fire, this morning.

At any rate, I'm keeping both my comments about that other venue and the topics posted there, free of any perceived ill will, here at MW. I find this effort easiest, by restricting my time spent there. 'Nuff said?

:cool_2:
aye! :cool_2:
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Post by Dave Wooley »

I have just had a chance to look at Norman Friedman's RN Destroyer and Frigate publication and to be fair from my first impressions I would recommend this book to any one, it is superb. I am aware that no two readers will arrive at the same conclusion but to be quite frank this is not a modelling book or is it formulated to benefit modellers it is a straight reference work for the naval buff and in this department it scores very well indeed. I have a prity good library at my disposal and I have access to thousands of pictures and in Norman Friedman's book there are many excellent pictures and yes some have been used in other publications but there are quite a number that I am not familiar with. This is a book that does it's job and does it well.
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

I got emailed this today by one of the leading Royal Navy researchers and authors I quote:-

"Looks good but as the WW2 part is relatively short and it appears to follow Norman's normal style....Besides I have been told that it contains some errors of fact and also suffers from some omissions of fact. Given that he (Norman Friedman) lives in the US and his time for research in British archives is limited I am not surprised."

I continue to read my copy at present as ever some useful things on the Royal Navy he mentions... this is a long book and shall take some time to fully digest.
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It's useful to me

Post by Michael Potter »

From my view as a US-based researcher and modeler, Norman Friedman's new book adds a large amount of new information and new illustrations. For example, this book has the only detailed drawing I have seen anywhere of a 1943 Battle-class destroyer as built.

It covers destroyers, frigates, WW2 sloops, exported ships, other Commonwealth navies, and never-built designs, from the Tribal class of the 1930s to today. So far I have read the first third of it, and some of the later sections. I find it illuminating to read about the alternatives considered for each WW2 flotilla, and about the reason for the oddly-shaped bridge of the postwar Daring class, which was this deckhouse enclosed a large room for aircraft direction plotting.

In this book Dr. Friedman has usefully compiled information from different archives. One case in point is that this book has details about the AD frigate type 62 that are not in the Brass Foundry archives. Another case is the relation of the RN's destroyer programme of the 1930s with arms treaties.

It has pesky little errors but IMO those are inevitable when one works from detailed source data. Patterns that may be visible if you focus on a small aspect are not necessarily apparent when you have data on hundreds of ships over decades of service. The errors I'm aware of, will not affect modelers and researchers who use this book as one source among others.

Disclaimer: Norman Friedman wrote a nice quote for my book jacket. Since it sold out long ago, I no longer earn royalties.
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Post by starshell »

Does not look like one for me then, particularly as the WWII content is so lacking, thanks for the reviews/comments etc.
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Laurence Batchelor
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

Someone is selling their copy already!!! It says New but no way could they be selling soo low and make money so I wonder is this is someone who was dissapointed?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BRITISH-DESTROYER ... dZViewItem
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Post by Dave Wooley »

Lozza1981 wrote:Someone is selling their copy already!!! It says New but no way could they be selling soo low and make money so I wonder is this is someone who was dissapointed?[/url]
Lozza I know that you are critical of Norman Friedmans book "British destroyer and Frigates of the second World War". But what would you have wanted ? and can you name a better publication dealing with the same subject ?. Just interested.
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

Dear David,

We can have a good chat over this at Telford if you wish :wave_1:

Briefly I hoped for something that remedied the problems with March's 40 year old seminal work, and presented itself in the Raven & Roberts mould with much better wartime coverage.

The Kelly's by Christopher Langtree I consider more valuable at present than this Volume 2 from Professor Norman Friedman.

I am not alone John Roberts has mentioned to me some serious errors he has noticed and Dr Eric Grove's review of it in the latest Navy New's found a lot of post-war historical mistakes which would have been picked up if he, Grove, had been given a copy to proof read or the author in question had spent more time in the archives in the UK or had looked closer at what Groves had already published.

Apart from all the above its still worth buying, it just isn't as good as it should be from someone at least in the USA who is considered THE naval author!
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