Constellation class FFG(X)-US Future Frigate program

[maxim]

@ DavidP: the new FFG(X) is based on the Italian FREMM version. They displace nearly twice as much as the 1970s OHP class frigates. Most FREMM have 7.62 cm guns, but some of the Italian ships have a 12.7 cm gun (in addition to a 7.62 cm gun). The USN version should have enough reserves to have a 12.7 cm gun instead of the 5.7 cm gun.

Here a comparison of the general purpose version of the Italian FREMM class with a OHP class:

[maxim]

Here the state that the 57 mm gun was chosen because of two types of ammunition under development:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3_a1ce81LA

One against small boats, the other one against anti-ship missiles. The later could be more capable than Phalanx and cheaper than RAM.

[Roberto]

I understand that while loosely based on the same hull as the FREMM design, the US NAVY FFGX shall be considerably longer and displace quite a bit more.

[maxim]

Here some statements regarding the length (496 ft) and displacement (7400 tons) can be found (page 16):
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/R44972.pdf

But the sources for the length and the displacement are different. If the displacement is given in short tons, it would be the same as the Italian FREMM.

[Admiral John Byng]

It would be odd if the dimensions were dramatically different from the FREMM as the US wanted an "off the shelf" design. Major changes to the dimensions would require a lot of new design work which would mitigate against the original requirement for a proven hull.

[The New Guy]

I hope the navy puts a MK32 torpedo launcher on the anti sub version of the new frigate. Helos can't fly in really stormy weather and ARSOC launched torpedoes are very costly. Also, if the enemy sub is up close and personal, I'm sure the captain would want the MK32 capability. For such short money and being used to hunt subs, it seems like a no brainer to add the MK32 system.

[Admiral John Byng]

I hope the navy puts a MK32 torpedo launcher on the anti sub version of the new frigate. Helos can't fly in really stormy weather and ARSOC launched torpedoes are very costly. Also, if the enemy sub is up close and personal, I'm sure the captain would want the MK32 capability. For such short money and being used to hunt subs, it seems like a no brainer to add the MK32 system.

I think it is unlikely that a ship would survive long enough to launch a torpedo if the sub was able to get that close. Most navies are abandoning shipboard torpedo systems in favour of helos and (for those who have them) rockets or ASROC type systems. The US should put some money in to urgently developing an aircraft to replace the S-3 Viking.

Ideally, subs need to be stopped before they can detect a surface unit - or at the least before they can get in to missile firing range. I suspect the Russians see anti-ship missiles as the future primary weapon of a submarine.

[maxim]

Most modern frigates have some torpedo tubes for self-defence, e.g. the Italian FREMM (ASW variant) have two twin tubes. In addition, many have systems against torpedoes.

[maxim]

Report about the FFG(X) program:

https://news.usni.org/2020/06/17/report ... defe82c004

[Haijun watcher]

It boils down to cost...even more so now that the economic impact of the pandemic is being felt.

National Defense magazine

Cost Estimates Questioned for New Navy Frigate
6/18/2020
By Jon Harper

The Navy is moving forward with a new guided missile frigate, but some observers question the service�s cost estimates for the program.

In late April, Fincantieri/Marinette Marine was awarded a $795 million fixed-price incentive contract for detail design and construction. The contract will provide for the delivery of up to 10 platforms, and will be worth $5.6 billion if all options are exercised.

�Another potential issue for Congress concerns the accuracy of the Navy�s estimated unit procurement cost for the FFG(X), particularly when compared to the known unit procurement costs of other recent U.S. surface combatants,� said Ronald O�Rourke, a naval affairs specialist at the Congressional Research Service.

The price tag of the lead ship will be about $1.3 billion, according to the Navy. It has requested $1.1 billion in fiscal year 2021 for the second vessel.

The Navy�s most recent budget submission estimates that the third and subsequent ships will cost roughly $940 million each in then-year dollars to procure, O�Rourke said in a recent CRS report
(...SNIPPED)

[Haijun watcher]

Navy Recognition

The proposed weaponry and design for the U.S. Navy�s Future Frigate
July News 2020 Navy Naval Maritime Defense Industry
10 July 2020
Following years of analysis and international competition, the U.S. Navy has selected Italian shipbuilder Fincantieri to build its FFG(X) �future frigate� design at the company�s Marinette Marine shipyard in Wisconsin.
The FFG(X) program is a Navy program to build a class of 20 guided-missile frigates (FFGs). Congress funded the procurement of the first FFG(X) in FY2020 at a cost of $1,281.2 million (i.e., about $1.3 billion). The Navy�s proposed FY2021 budget requests $1,053.1 million (i.e., about $1.1 billion) for the procurement of the second FFG(X). The Navy estimates that subsequent ships in the class will cost roughly $940 million each in then-year dollars.
Four industry teams were competing for the FFG(X) program. On April 30, 2020, the Navy announced that it had awarded the FFG(X) contract to the team led by Fincantieri/Marinette Marine (F/MM) of Marinette, WI. F/MM was awarded a fixed-price incentive (firm target) contract for Detail Design and Construction (DD&C) for up to 10 ships in the program�the lead ship plus nine option ships.
Based on the Italian multimission FREMM (Fregata Europea Multi-Missione), the guided-missile frigates will be optimized for operations in both blue-water and littoral environments and will incorporate a number of design modifications for the Navy.
(...SNIPPED)

[Admiral John Byng]

No bow sonar?

[Roberto]

No bow sonar?

Following on the steps of the Perry class.

[navydavesof]

They chose the wrong hull. The F-100 hull, which is the evolutionary step of the Perry hull, should have been selected, Aegis or not, and armed with 64 VLS, 76mm or 5" gun, 2 SeaRAM, 1 Phalanx CIWS, 8-16 ASCMs, TRS4D, a good keel mounted sonar, and intent.

[maxim]

The lack of the bow sonar is not the fault of the hull design. The Italian FREMM have a bow sonar.

The same is true for the armament - the FFG(X) are intentionally not armed to the extent possible with the hull design, but with fewer weapons - to reduce costs. More weapons can be added.

[Admiral John Byng]

What worries me is that the USN doesn't seem to be focused on ASW. The design does have a towed array but they are relying on another platform to warn the ship of a need to deploy it. A hull-mounted sonar is a vital piece of equipment for a frigate.

[Roberto]

They chose the wrong hull. The F-100 hull, which is the evolutionary step of the Perry hull, should have been selected, Aegis or not, and armed with 64 VLS, 76mm or 5" gun, 2 SeaRAM, 1 Phalanx CIWS, 8-16 ASCMs, TRS4D, a good keel mounted sonar, and intent.

There is plenty of space for all that in the FREMM hull, and more.
Sea RAM and CIWS are palletized weapons and additional VLS space exists ahead of the hangar.
Plus it's an Italian design....

[Roberto]

They chose the wrong hull. The F-100 hull, which is the evolutionary step of the Perry hull, should have been selected, Aegis or not, and armed with 64 VLS, 76mm or 5" gun, 2 SeaRAM, 1 Phalanx CIWS, 8-16 ASCMs, TRS4D, a good keel mounted sonar, and intent.

There is plenty of space for all that in the FREMM hull, and more.
Sea RAM and CIWS are palletized weapons and additional VLS space exists ahead of the hangar.
Plus it's an Italian design....
Oh, and the Marinette CEO got his wings with me.

[Haijun watcher]

Brooke class then? However, the first in the class named is not always what the class name will be.

The Drive

Pentagon Notice Says The First Of The Navy's New Frigates Will Be Named USS Brooke

�A Pentagon contracting announcements indicates that the first of the U.S. Navy's new class of guided-missile frigates, commonly referred to as FFG(X), will be named the USS Brooke. Former Acting Secretary of the Navy Thomas Modly had sought to the name the first of these ships the USS Agility, before resigning earlier this year amid a scandal having to do with a serious COVID-19 outbreak on the Nimitz class aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt.�

(...SNIPPED)

[Timmy C]

Likely an error by whoever wrote the contract from which this detail was found - it's highly unlikely the USN would reuse the original USS Brooke as well as its FFG-1 designation for a completely different ship class (the contract said specifically "USS Brooke (FFG-1)"). I can't think of a single case in USN history where two totally different classes ended up using identical designation+number and names.