Calling all USS Pennsylvania BB-38 fans

[Channell]

She was painted MS-21, which is overall 5-N Navy Blue with 20B Deck Blue decks. She was painted in this scheme during repairs after Pearl Harbor and remained in this scheme the rest of the war. Here's a good reference: USN WWII Camouflage Measures

On a different note I'm doing a Pennsylvania conversion, but in 1/350.

Not to be a bit PITA but are you sure?
She certainly was by the time that famous color pic in the drydock (after the major refit in late 1942) but I've read the Pennsylvania was still grey at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack and was hurried off the Mare island in secret as soon as possible for repairs (not leaving much time to paint her I'd think).

In the link you gave me it gives the date of June 1942 for Measure 21... not sure if it applies here but is is possible the Pennsylvania was not "blue" in March when repairs were completed?

Anybody aware if there is documentation out there to confirm/deny this?

I ask because I am seriously considering trying to tackle a 1/200 diorama of this later on in the year:



Aside from being littered with liferafts and new oerlikons, The Pennsylvania seems basically prewar in appearance...

I'd like to see what you are doing on your conversion too... did you put in up on the forum?

[Tracy White]

90% sure she was in regular Measure 11. Measure 11 was "modified" around that time to substitute 5-N Navy Blue for the original 5-S Sea Blue that Measure 11 called out for. This was identical to what was later called Measure 21, but at the time they still called it Measure 11. Navy Blue was darker than Sea Blue, so there should be less contrast between the stack tops and rest of the ship if it were Navy Blue.

[Channell]

Thanks for the info... My orders are placed and this project will happen... someday. I got a KA wooden deck though; I'm pretty sure I don't want to paint it. In the pics the deck is clearly painted by March '41 so you guys are probably right on the color scheme.

Tracy, correct me if I'm wrong but I think I read some stuff online that involved your research which came to the conclusion the Pennsylvania wasn't painted in measure 11 on 12-7-41? is that correct?

The look I want is best illustrated by some 1930's pictures from Life magazine: (http://navsource.org/archives/01/042/014200a.jpg , http://navsource.org/archives/01/042/014200b.jpg)

It's the Idaho... I'm having trouble finding info on the Pennsylvania's color schemes and I guess what I really want to know is if the Pennsylvania was ever painted like that and if so when?

I would really like to do the extra gun tubs and oerlikons like in the March '42 pics along with the "Life" magazine USS Idaho color scheme, but I also want to remain true to history.

Many thanks again!

Edit, posting link to only copy of "Ships-2" 1942 since I had so much trouble finding it! http://www.hnsa.org/doc/camo/index.htm#pg28

[ArizonaBB39]

The pictures of Idaho you posted are of her in Standard Grey #5, which was the USN pre-war paint scheme. This means all the ships of the USN were this color up until they started playing with different colors before the beginning of WWII. If you look at Pennsy's navsource page you'll see her in Standard Grey up until 1940/1941. From Tracy's research she would have had painted turret tops already though.

Tracy knows much more than I do on this subject (camouflage), though, so I'd go with whatever he says.

[SeanF]

Pennsylvania was most certainly not painted in Ms. 11 on Dec. 7, 1941. Definitely Ms. 1. See:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013823.jpg
(And in this photo, you can also see a glimpse of her white turret tops and unpainted wood deck, as well.)

- Sean F.

[Tracy White]

None of the battleships were in "stock" Measure 11 by the time of the attack, only a few cruisers were. Measure 11 called for the paint to be the same on all vertical surfaces, whereas all of the BBs at Pearl had the light gray tops above the stack. There is a *slim* chance that they battleships were in a modified Measure 1, which replaced 5-D Dark Gray with 5-S Sea Blue, but we haven't found any documentation that confirms this. There is also a chance the battleships were painted in a Modified Measure 2, which would have seen the 5-D Dark Gray remain on the hull and then the superstructure and turrets painted in 5-S or 5-O Ocean Gray *as needed* (meaning just one level or section and not the entire superstructure). I was read an order to this affect over the phone a few years ago, but haven't been able to find a copy to confirm this, so at this point there's no firm data. Straight Measure 1 is the safest, because we know they all had it from June 1941 to late November if not the time of the attack.

[Channell]

1 more question that I'm having trouble finding an aswer to. Obviously (from the photos) Pennsylvania had her .50 mgs replaced with 20.mm Oerlikons by March of '42 but when did the switch actually happen? The stuff I've read says the Arizona was still sporting .50s on 12-7 but was the same true for the Pennsylvania?

[Jon C Ryckert]

I believe Penn still just had 50's on 12-7.

[ArizonaBB39]

IIRC none of the battleshps had 20mm guns until after the attack.

[Tracy White]

No, none did. If you look at this document I posted from August of 1941, no 20MMs were scheduled to hit the west coast before the end of November. Section 10 of her Pearl Harbor Action Report lists 60,000 rounds of .50 cal expended, as well as #" and 5", but no 20mm.

[ArizonaBB39]

as well as #"

IS that the top secret weapon the navy was working on, being the real reason the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor?

[Channell]

as well as #"

IS that the top secret weapon the navy was working on, being the real reason the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor?

If only Roswell happened in 1940 instead of 1947.

Thanks for the info. I read yesterday that there were a couple of Oerlikons at Pearl on Dec 7 but they were boxed up in the hold on the USS Utah...

[Tracy White]

Utah was a training ship, so that makes sense.

Just as a general FYI - we don't know the exact date that any individual ships painted from the prewar #5 Standard Navy Gray to Measure 1 at this point. However, I have a photo documenting construction that shows battleship row in the background on June 2nd and 3 of five BBs in view are in Measure 1, the rest in the pre-war gray still. So that pegs the transition as late May / Early June. Decks WERE NOT PAINTED at that time; it wasn't until November / December, and even then, only some of the ships. It wasn't even ordered until the very end of August and that memo essentially says "when available."

With regards to the typo... I cracked the screen on my laptop and have been using a borrowed Microsoft Surface... neat product but the keyboard is blasted small and twitch

[Andrew D BB39 Sec]

Not sure if this is known, but regarding the foremast in '44-45, I've seen from photos that the inclined ladders of pre-PH were replaced by vertical ladders, at the very least of one vertical ladder ascending the starboard side of the forward leg of the tripod, going up into what was left of the fighting top (identified by a man climbing it). Any reason to suspect there might have been a ladder on both sides of the leg, or would that have been wasteful, as I suspect?

[Tracy White]

I'm not precisely sure what time frame you're talking about. I have two sets of "high rez" photos I scanned in at the archives; one following her Mare Island refit in 1942 following Pearl Harbor, and another about a year later.

The first set shows a vertical ladder halfway up the forward leg (actually just aft of it) to a platform and then an inclined ladder from there to the bottom of the fighting top.

The second set, a year later, shows vertical ladders on each angled leg and the previous installation gone. I can see the hand rails for this on the port leg in this Oct 1944 photo but not the starboard leg due to the angle. It does, however, look like both are there in this June 1945 shot.

[Andrew D BB39 Sec]

Well, then let me ask a dumb question (to most in here, I think) while I'm at it...regarding Measure 21, was deck blue even on the metal decks of the superstructure, even the ones technically shielded from aerial view by the decks layered above it? And, how about, say, the floors of gun tubs on top of the 14" turrets? Was it as simple as "wherever feet would tread get the deck blue treatment"?

[Tracy White]

Essentially. Even if it's shielded from directly above, a deck may be visible from a slant view. Camouflage was more for distance "viewing" than nearby, so slant views in the pacific were important.

[Andrew D BB39 Sec]

Okay, that's what I figured, but how about, say on the floors of the gun tubs on top of the 14# guns? In this view, after the war when the weapons were being removed, the gun tub floors appear to have anti-skid floors, though I'm no expert in ships. http://navsource.org/archives/01/038/013809z.jpg If that's the case, wouldn't they be in more of a dark charcoal gray?

Or, if that wasn't enough, in this view from the same batch, where it looks like the dark coating/paint/whatever is removed, revealing only the 5N of the turret-top, am I correct? http://navsource.org/archives/01/038/013809u.jpg

So basically, what would YOU do? I'm the student here....

[Tracy White]

So basically, what would YOU do? I'm the student here....

Paint it pink and dare someone to prove me wrong!

There were actually several types of non-skid throughout the war. I don't have a complete survey of them, but I've seen fragments from 1942 and 43 in the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard records. The goal was a material that matched the camouflage paint (be it deck blue or deck green; I don't know if they went so far as to try and match Ocean Gray as well for the ships that had a dazzle pattern that extended to the deck as well) on the deck, but it frequently weathered differently or had a different appearance due to variation (once again, I don't have a really good "picture" based on documentation that I've found on this yet). I can point to this photo on CV-16 Lexington from this report as an example of how the deck paint varies a bit from the appearance of the non-skid.

Essentially, I'd try and make it look close, but not exactly like Deck Blue. Perhaps a shade darker as it should be less reflective, and I would imagine it would pick up and hold dirt and grime better.

[Andrew D BB39 Sec]

Sounds great, thanks!

Anyone wanna make money? I'll bet there's a market for decals of the antiskid for the floors of gun tubs, as it would come off more convincing painting it.... Seriously!