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Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2024 1:21 pm
by SG1
wefalck wrote: Ninitinol as a metal will not 'react' to any paint ...

YES, i guess it wouldn't start to sizzle :big_grin: . Apologies for using an incorrect term, i was enquiring about adhesion of enamels to nitinol, need for a primer etc

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2024 1:37 pm
by JIM BAUMANN
I use thinned enamel--

but usually indelible marker ( pentel) paint-- no thickness gain

sometimes I resort to various shades of brown 'sharpie' pens

cheers
JIM B

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2024 1:45 pm
by SG1
thank you :thumbs_up_1:

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2024 1:30 pm
by JIM BAUMANN
Hello all again-

-multiple vacations in summer, classic cars ,
paddlesteamer trips et al conspired to ration model-making progress

( but now have large and small progress to report !

small progress....

Making the cat heads( massive strong davit) for the anchors
annotated photos are self explanatory
P1040359.jpg
P1040362.jpg
P1040425.jpg
steam pipes and funnels
P1040401.jpg
P1040404.jpg

and BIIIiiiiiiG progress....

The custom 3-D package is here... at last !!

a small selection of the goodies....

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2024 2:30 pm
by maxim
Cool!

Great that you got all these 3D printed parts! :thumbs_up_1:

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2024 2:34 pm
by wefalck
Looking forward to all these parts being painted and installed ! 3D-printing seems to be the future of modelling ...

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2024 3:34 pm
by JIM BAUMANN
I could make 5-10 or so barrels fairly identical

but could not manage a 130 odd....!!

same with gunport lids, the sqaure ones are OK
but the split gun port lids .....with a semi-circle in each side....(!)
to fit over the barrel;....
in 1/700 ....

are way beyond ,me to make repeatably, in quality and number ( in those numbers !! )

Apropos Gun ports, and the attaching tongues.....

a little more information here below as to how and why the tongues

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2024 2:24 pm
by Iceman 29
:thumbs_up_1:

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:45 am
by Yuth
An impressive work as usual, and these lovely 3D parts will be well used I guess !

Can't wait for the future updates ! :)

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:01 am
by bgire
:thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2024 2:41 am
by marijn van gils
Fantastic work Jim! :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:

The 3D-printed parts look fantastic! For the guns etc. they are certainly the best solution by far. And for the tops, they save you A LOT of scratchbuilding work!
The lips on the gun ports are very clever too.

I always found the catheads to be an important visual element of a man o' war. It somehow adds a lot to it's character, a bit like eyebrows to a person.


I have been quite inactive posting here the last couple of months, but still following with great interest!
Especially the sails... And I have a question!

This is an experimental sail of yours, with unvarnished paper:
Image

The glue for the bolt ropes looks messy, as you wrote.
I guess because it soakes into the paper?
But I guess the varnish prevents this from happening with the final sails?
What varnish do you use, and how do you apply it?

I would be worried about little glue spots anyway, even without the soaking effect. Do you get them, and if so can your remove them? With a little dab of varnish maybe?
I am mostly worried that glue spots will affect the translucency of the sail. Does a sail appear darker or lighter at a glue spot when lit from behind?

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2024 7:23 am
by pascalemod
The 3D printed port solution is superb. Do you have a friend doing these for you Jim, or the company is open to designing and at least receiving files - printing - based on instructions?

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2024 1:42 pm
by JIM BAUMANN
Hello @ Marijinn

that is a very valid question!

obviously I experimented first... ( on my 1/400 Mary Rose !) so also applicable to your Victory/ Redoutable works

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=163736&start=40#p710302

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=163736&start=60#p711283

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=163736&start=60#p711627




In 1/700-- same deal I sprayed the front and back of the paper ( to soak in ) whilst still flat
with Matt Humbrol Matt Kote ( in the glass jar ) enamel varnish
s-l1600.jpg


That renders it impervious to moisture in the air ( important with the ink-jet printed sails- ! )

when the wires are glued on all around as per image below, the CA glue and thinned white glue does s not show up.
when the sails are installed to the model they will be total (!) matt coat misted with Windsor and Newton artist quality Matt varnish
( acrylic which will not react with any enamel )

61q4+afkhpL._AC_SL1463_.jpg

white glue wood adhesive.jpg


--this will homogenise the whole thing

( wires glued on )

Image

HTH


@ Pascal--I shall ask.....

cheers
JB

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2024 1:50 pm
by Sszabi
There are some lovely details on this little boat... I especially like the sails! :thumbs_up_1:

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2024 5:05 am
by marijn van gils
Many thanks Jim! That helps a lot indeed! :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2024 11:39 pm
by Frank Spahr
Most impressive progress and very helpful explanations as to how it�s done, Jim!

Those 3D printed parts will sure make a big difference, well done you!

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:14 pm
by JIM BAUMANN
Thank you all for your interest and kind words !

Progress is ongoing-- slow but steady now that the weather has turned more typically Northern European ( English !)
( wet, even wetter and then windy ) which in the absence of classic car activity does chain me to the model bench more effectively

Wikipedia entry on Bretagne.... broadly accurate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_sh ... gne_(1855)

but this caused me some thought and consternation...
The main battery of Bretagne used 36-pounder long guns, the heaviest available calibre, instead of the more modern 30-pounder long gun on which other ships standardised their armament. The aft of the ship was round and featured gun ports, like on Napol�on on her successors. Although she carried 130 guns of various calibres, Bretagne featured no less than 180 gun ports; this allowed the crew to reinforce the artillery on one arc if needed and time permitting, such as before a shore bombardment, and fire up to 80 guns on one target.


So far so good..... :smallsmile: :thumbs_up_1:

... but then this..... caused some thoughts and wobbles
The ultimate increase in French capital ship design, Bretagne increased the number of heavy guns on the lower battery to 18 on each side, from the 15 of the Bretagne of 1766 and 16 on the Oc�ans. In the original design, half of these guns were 36-pounder long guns, as to maximise firepower at the price of standardisation on 30-pounder long guns that typically prevailed at the time, the other half being 60-pounder Paixhans guns. The middle deck fielded 18 30-pounder short guns and another 18 Paixhans guns of 60 pounds. The upper battery was armed with thirty-eight 30-pounder howitzers. Two 50-pounders and eighteen 30-pounder caronades complemented the armament on the deck. This gave Bretagne a broadside of 2,924 pounds (1,431 kilograms), compared to the 2,400 of the original Oc�an design.

now then.... after consulting a number of experts in the field of French warships of this era....( cheers-- you know who you are...! :thumbs_up_1: :wave_1: )
( with considerably more knowledge and better reference libraries than I have.....

It would suggest the above Paixhan theory perhaps to be slightly flawed for my depicted era of 1856...? ==> as the sources consulted by the above exports of the period makes no mention of these having actually been installed ( at this time )...

checking the sparse selection of photos was inconclusive either way, and contemporary paintings ( these also inconclusive ! ) led me to the following decision!
================================================================
For the sake of the models appearance....

( symmetry of gun barrel lengths and appearance )
To have the 1 st battery( bottom row) consist of all 36 pdrs ( as per first quote)

with the 2 nd Battery (middle row and 3 rd Battery ( upper row) consist of all 30 pdrs.

The weather main deck will features carronades and muzzle loading guns-as well as
' a brace of canon de 50 '

anyhow onwards to tangible things in 1/700
................................................................................................................................................

The image below shows the difference 'twixt 36 pdrs and the Paixhan shell guns ( shorter barrel and no muzzle flare )
( these are small items in 1/700! )

I hope this will vindicate my decision as above !
P1040470.jpg
The very small gun-port lids feature a scale thickness and have the correct steps in profile on the underside.

( the upper batteries-- split into upper and lower lids are much smaller still!)

Noteworthy is the previously described gluing tongue
P1040484.jpg
A trial install of a unpainted gun barrel into a selection of the apertures in the hull....
was encouraging in appearance !
P1040415.jpg
It did also however reveal that all my initial drilling into the hull for the gun-ports......
( thread page 1 and 2) was not all of an entirely uniform depth... necessitating a test fit-and cutting to length of each barrel.

( ....up to 0.4 mm variation :scratch: -which does not sound much-
- but would equal to 280 mm in real-life 1-1 scale)
though its nothing that a quick swipe with a sanding stick cannot change! :cool_1:

The barrels that have been installed so far were bedded on to a dollop of white glue at the inboard end to give a cushion==> and an even and strong grab.
The white glue slower setting time also allowed tuning of the angle and heights of the barrels for some time! ( wiggle room time)
P1040461.jpg
The gunport lids were installed using the handy and ( much! ) aforementioned glue tongues.... :cool_2:
.......and using a good dollop of white glue to obtain a secure joint
( the glue dollop ends up going up behind the inside edge of the PE brass square in the side of the hull--giving secure adhesion


Early days still-- but the look and effect is increasingly promising !
P1040459.jpg
P1040466.jpg
The lids--once set and tuned--will receive a slight wash and very very light drybrush

onwards on to more lids ... and then the 2 rows of 30 pdrs will be next !
Thereafter the ship will be mounted on her sea base-....

-.......as it is getting increasingly more delicate to handle with all the protrusions
held on mainly with my will-power !! :big_grin:
P1040479.jpg

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2024 11:28 pm
by maxim
According to Winfield and Roberts (French Warships in the Age of Sail 1786-1861), the armament in 1855 was:

lower deck: 18 x 36-pounder, 18 x 22 cm No. 1 shell guns

middle deck: 18 x 30-pounder No. 2, 18 x 22 cm No. 2 shell guns

upper deck: 38 x 30-pounder no. 3

superstructure decks: 2 x 50-pounder, 18 x 30-pounder carronades

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 3:01 am
by wefalck
Those dimensions tally with my contemporary original sources for French artilllery of the time.

Jim, why did you set the guns at the lower edge of the gunports, for practical reasons? Normally, when the barrel is horizontal, they should be about in the middle of the gunport.

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 3:28 am
by JIM BAUMANN
Well--it looks I will be pulling some guns.... shell shell

My guns are indeed not dead centre--it was intentional
( I reckoned that whilst not in action but under sail the guns would not be elevated

the position of the guns is in within lower third-- based on what's local to me... :big_grin:

do you ( all) think they need pulling > adjusting?

see Victory below
h3MMApYW9jSB5Hpa.jpg