At 'Em Arizona Fans!

Tracy White · Post by **Tracy White** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:44 pm

Most people ignore. Some are re-planking or using a wood deck, but I think it's as much for the natural appearance as anything. Your model - your decision as to what you put into it soul and time wise.

sixman · Post by **sixman** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:40 am

I checked Stillwell's book in reference to the radar platfrom and it looks like his text may be wrong. On page 216 (last paragraph) he is talking about the Bremertom refit of late 1940 - early 1941. ABout half way into the paragraph he stated "She got a pedestal foundation for an air-search radar but not the radar's electronic equipment nor the antenna". Sice the photo 4 pages later shows there is no pedestal, it looks like the wording is wrong.

sixman · Post by **sixman** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:51 am

Has anyone orderd the Profile Morskie 1/200 plans (in PDF format)? If so, are they better that the plans you can get fron the Floating Drydock?

Jon C Ryckert · Post by **Jon C Ryckert** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:25 pm

I recall others saying that the plans were not that great and some of the details were wrong. Try using the 'Search' button at the top of the page to search different parts of the message board. I know that it has been discussed here before but not sure what section on this website it was

Ensign Jay · Post by **Ensign Jay** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:49 pm

Hi all , slightly left field question , has any one a photo of the area around the funnel base early era , I am just trying to sort out some details in that area for my 1916 scratch . Partiularly skylights and hatches etc plus there seems to be a large dia at the funnel base with a structure on the port side ? any help would be very helpful

Ensign Jay · Post by **Ensign Jay** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:50 pm

Hi all , this looks like the area in question , would anyone like to confirm or deny ??

Tracy White · Post by **Tracy White** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:40 am

Port side, just forward of funnel, looking aft if the Chesley plans in the Stillwell Arizona book are correct...

Ensign Jay · Post by **Ensign Jay** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:15 pm

Thanks Tracy, just needed a ok for that , looking in the Squadron book , the large flared overhang at the funnel base was added later as it appears in the photo at the bottom of page 50 , I can't seem to spot it any earlier than the 1920's.

cheers Jay

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:43 pm

Wondering if anyone could help me with what seems like a simple questions. I just got the Trumpeter 1/200 Arizona, KA Models set, brass screws and brass barrels for the 5" and AAA guns...in other words I'm planning this one all out.

This means I need to find a display case and would like to do so before I get too far in to building so that I can store it in the case when I need a break from construction and shelve it. The length and beam are easy to get just from the hull pieces. I still need the height before picking a display case and it won't be until late in the build before I have things built up enough to figure it out on my model.

So, can anyone tell me how tall the Arizona stands keel to top of the highest mast--either in 1/200 or 1/1 scale? I've found one reference indicating 105" from the water line, but I don't know her draw to add to that. I appreciate any and all help.

Post by **Timmy C** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:21 pm

Figure out the scale that the painting guide is in (use the length or width of the real full-size Arizona and the guide) and then measure the height of the drawing in the painting guide and scale into 1/200.

Calculations will go like this:

Real Arizona length / Drawing length = scale of drawing

Scale of drawing * Drawing height = Real Arizona height

Real Arizona height / 200 = model's height in 1/200 scale

Be sure to use the same units throughout, of course.

Timhan · Post by **Timhan** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:15 am

Guest
Have finished my 200 scale Arizona and have mounted her brass pedestals approx 1 inch high on a wood base. I had an accrylic
cover custom made 350 mm high (35 cm). This left a gap of about 3 or 4 cm between the highest point of the model and top of
the display case. Hope this helps.
Tim.

ESzczesniak · Post by **ESzczesniak** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:43 am

Timmy C wrote:Figure out the scale that the painting guide is in (use the length or width of the real full-size Arizona and the guide) and then measure the height of the drawing in the painting guide and scale into 1/200.

Well there's a simple and elegant solution...makes me feel kind of stupid for not figuring this one out myself. It happens to correlated pretty well with the 35 cm height below (accounting for mounting pedastals and some wiggle room) too.

Case ordered and on the way, now just time to get dirty and buidl this thing.

ESzczesniak · Post by **ESzczesniak** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:15 am

Well here I go again. I've been doing some research on the paint schemes and am aware there is a great deal of controversey. This of course means I have questions. First, here's what I think I know:

1. Officially the Arizona was in Measure 1, which called for 5-D Dark gray with 5-L above the stacks.

2. An order/paper of some sorts was found by the commander of Arizona's group ordering the ships painted in "mediterranean blue".

3. Alternatively, there are reports of shortages of 5-D and this may have been substituted with 5-S.

4. At the time of December 7th, 1941, her turret tops of 1, 2 and 4 were painted red marking her position in the group.

5. She was drydocked for repairs and possibly repainted in November 1941.

So now, here are my questions:

1. When was this order to repaint in to "mediterranean blue" given? Was it well before the November dry dock of Arizona? Or was it more near or even after the dry dock? In other words, how likely is it that this order was active at the time of her refit/repair.

2. I am going to assume that "mediterranean blue" is/nearly is 5-S Sea Blue that I see most often discussed in this controversey. Is this incorrect to assume?

3. When were the red tops added? Some are stating that was in her November refit. I ask, because if they were added before the November refit, then I know I can paint her in 5-D and still make the turrets red (which I really want to do for the added color).

4. I've seen short snippets of survivor testimony point in both directions. Am I missing any parts of testimony that is more definitive?

Tracy White · Post by **Tracy White** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:35 pm

ESzczesniak wrote:1. Officially the Arizona was in Measure 1, which called for 5-D Dark gray with 5-L above the stacks.

First off, please read this if you haven't already.

We don't know what Arizona was "officially" in - the pattern certainly appears to match Measure 1. Measure 1 essentially became Measure 11 when the camouflage directives for the fleet were revised, but the orders to paint in one pattern or another came from the type commander, not the Bureau of Ships. That's been our problem, is that we haven't been able to go through all of the various commands to look for camouflage directives yet. I made a trip last October and am hoping to do another this October. I realize that doesn't help you with your kit NOW, but that's the best I can do.

ESzczesniak wrote:2. An order/paper of some sorts was found by the commander of Arizona's group ordering the ships painted in "mediterranean blue".

There was no "Mediterranean Blue" - this was the term used by a naval aviator to describe a color he did not know or remember the official name for. The designation was 5-S and the name was "Sea Blue." If someone has an order as you describe then I'd LOVE to see it; I've been looking for documentation on her final colors for over five years now. There *was* an order to some cruisers to paint in 5-S Sea Blue in August:

http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... 0Camo.html
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... rCamo.html

But keep in mind that these are completely separate commands from the battleships and not proof in any way.

ESzczesniak wrote:3. Alternatively, there are reports of shortages of 5-D and this may have been substituted with 5-S.

Closer to the truth. Production of 5-D was ordered cancelled at the end of July with the intention of transitioning to 5-S. However, there were delays in actually telling the ships and yards that. For example, in mid-September, USS Oklahoma wrote the Commander of Battleships asking for directions on paint, since a requisition had been kicked back to them.

ESzczesniak wrote:4. At the time of December 7th, 1941, her turret tops of 1, 2 and 4 were painted red marking her position in the group.

Yes. Not just within the "group" - the system showed ship type (solid tops for battleships, stripes for cruisers.), division (Battleship Division 1 had red, BatDiv 2 had white) and position with the group (Red for flagship - red/red/red equates to flagship of BatDiv 1)

ESzczesniak wrote:1. When was this order to repaint in to "mediterranean blue" given? Was it well before the November dry dock of Arizona? Or was it more near or even after the dry dock? In other words, how likely is it that this order was active at the time of her refit/repair.

Once again, this is about all we "know" for now; if there's other information that's been found no one is sharing it. There was just a whole lot of confusion within the Navy, and 70-years later with the mish-mash of paperwork we have, it ain't any clearer at this point, unfortunately.

ESzczesniak wrote:3. When were the red tops added? Some are stating that was in her November refit. I ask, because if they were added before the November refit, then I know I can paint her in 5-D and still make the turrets red (which I really want to do for the added color).

It was part of an evolving system that dates back at least to the late 1920s.... for sure we know it goes to the late 1930s for Arizona. The earliest I have personally found was August of 1938; you can read the other documents I've found that support or define this here.

ESzczesniak wrote:4. I've seen short snippets of survivor testimony point in both directions. Am I missing any parts of testimony that is more definitive?

Nope and probably.

There's a lot of conflicting testimony out there, which is why I decided to attempt to solve the question through official documents.

ESzczesniak · Post by **ESzczesniak** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:02 pm

Thank you Mr. White for that information. I had not seen your discussion post that you linked previously and it is the most coherent summary I've seen in one place.

I was wondering if you could perhaps clarify this statement I found regarding paint schemes...

USS Arizona is known to have painted into Measure 1 in mid-1941. If you are among those who believe that she did not repaint after her collision with USS Oklahoma in October 1941 and was still in Measure 1 at the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor, these are the colours you need...

This is from a page at WEM (https://www.whiteensignmodels.com/page/ ... olours/20/)

I don't know the source for this. I've seen references to a July repaint on several discussion threads, but have not seen evidence that it actually occurred.

I ask because for my build I am looking to fullfill only two criteria. 1) I want the red turret tops for their visual appeal and 2) I want an accurate portrayal of Arizona at some point...not necessarily on Dec. 7.

The kit puts me in 1941, so my potential options are 1) paint following the finish of her refit in January 1941 (would that have been Navy Standard Gray? It overlaps in close proximaty it seems to the new order for 5-D), 2) paint her in 5-D following the July repaint (assuming that information is accurate) or 3) paint her on the morning of Dec. 7...whatever that may be.

Based on the information you presented, the order for the red turret tops had been in effect for sometime and likely have been present on any of these schemes during this time (although, who knows at this point given the lack of concrete evidence).

I appreciate your help. You're a wealth of information, particularly for a relative ship newbie (I normally build things with wings...which only applies to a very small number of ships).

Tracy White · Post by **Tracy White** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:03 pm

In sort of reverse order.. be careful; I started out as an airplane builder as well... but Arizona lead me down a dark path!

There are at least two paint schemes for 1941 and as many as four.... but the last two are pure conjecture at this point until we can say that we've looked everywhere we could.

We know Measure 1 was applied at some point, as it was ordered for the Pacific Fleet. However, since it was the first time the Navy had changed paint colors since the end of WWI there was a lot of confusion and problems getting all the ingredients...etc. I have photos (that I can't share) of Pearl Harbor in both May and June of 1941, documenting the construction of a drydock. In the May photos all of the battleships are in the prewar gray still, but in the June photos (dated either the 2nd or the 4th) three of the four battleships are in Measure 1, and the other is in the prewar gray. So we can say that from June on she was in Measure 1, most likely through October when she was damaged in a collision and went in for repair. After that it gets considerably muddier.

No need to dance around the colored turret tops question. If you look at this photo of battleship row during the attack, you can see that the turret tops all look a little different from each other. It was put down to shape, sunlight, angle, etc., before we had the research that blew the lid off the truth. But once we knew, you can look at nearly any cruiser or battleship and identify it as long as the angle is high enough. I have my mind open on the camouflage question, but it's "case closed" for me on the turret tops and I'll argue the point quite tenaciously (but politely) if someone tries to argue otherwise.

If you want a pleasing build that's more than a gray blob and "mostly" accurate, I'd suggest considering the January-May 1941 period when she was in the pre-war gray still. Aside from the colored turret tops, there is a fairly good possibility that her superstructure decks and platforms were covered in linoleum and not deck gray. This photo of Idaho in 1941 is about all we have to go on right now, but if you look at the platform the sailors are standing on, that ain't deck gray, and it ain't wet wood either. I've tried looking through the Pearl Harbor Navy Yard files for anything and came up empty (granted, I haven't gone through all of the records yet), so there's no proof, but it's an intriguing possibility, and one that's fairly likely, given other navies' use of Linoleum at the time.

Back to your first point again.... something I like to try and keep in mind is the "duality" of the question. One one hand, it's academic; I doubt any of the sailors who died that day really cared what color the paint that was burning with them was. But, on the other hand, I think that there is something to be said for trying to honor them as accurately as possible. I started posting my research because of all of the fighting over her final paint. While we don't have an answer and there is still a difference of opinions among many people, I think bringing the knowledge to the masses has calmed things down and I'm glad we no longer mark their memory and service with bickering.

ESzczesniak · Post by **ESzczesniak** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:18 pm

Tracy White wrote:In sort of reverse order.. be careful; I started out as an airplane builder as well... but Arizona lead me down a dark path!

Well I'm in definite trouble then. This isn't just the USS Arizona, it's the treasure of a 1/200 scale USS Arizona. I must say that I've learned quite a bit about the US Navy in this time period just from something as trivial as what color I need to paint this thing. It become easy enough now...either 5-D or the pre-war gray. I have a feeling the 5-D may be just too dark a gray for my taste, but we'll see.

Interestingly enough...as you've suggested the turret color questions is less of a question now (and more fact). However if any question remains, the picture you linked for the USS Idaho with possible linoleum decks (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/a0 ... c1b29.html) is an original color photo that seems to clearly confirm this. If you look at the top left part of the picture you can see the red turret top of turret number four through the truss in the aircraft catapult on turret 3. I don't know the details like others, but according to this link (http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... kings.html) red is the correct color for this position.

Tracy White · Post by **Tracy White** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:23 pm

FYI.. your second link is "me" in that I'm Researcher@Large

One other thing that might not have been mentioned is that the turret tops matched the tail and cowling colors of the aircraft that were assigned, so that can be used to identify ships as well. For example, even if we couldn't see the name on this airplane we could match the tail colors to this "chart" and the cowling (and number) would tell us that it was on the first ship of that division; Hence Idaho.

Hippy Ed · Post by **Hippy Ed** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:48 pm

Tracy White wrote:FYI.. your second link is "me" in that I'm Researcher@Large One other thing that might not have been mentioned is that the turret tops matched the tail and cowling colors of the aircraft that were assigned, so that can be used to identify ships as well. For example, even if we couldn't see the name on this airplane we could match the tail colors to this "chart" and the cowling (and number) would tell us that it was on the first ship of that division; Hence Idaho.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon May 14, 2012 12:30 pm

I've been lurking for a while but thought I should join up and share my project!. I haven't built anything for a while, but I found a Trumpeter 1/200 Arizona at my local hobby shop and couldn't resist. What a great kit!

That was back in January... here's where I'm am now:

The Ship Model Forum

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