Calling all Essex-class (WWII configuration) fans

[Tracy White]

Glad to be of some help. I'm sure there are some things I missed; Keith may weigh in with those, but between that and what's already been mentioned you should be off to a good start.

[keithhufnagel]

Hello, Walt Whanes. The major differences between CV-9 Essex and CV-10 Yorktown (except for the lack of the director tub aft of second 5" mount forward on CV-9) are listed on the previous page of this thread. As to using the "Trumpeter Kit(s)" Essex kit to build a 'Nov. 44'(actual October 44') Yorktown" the challenges would be significant. If you can find it, use the CV-10 Yorktown Kit . Though not perfect the changes to this kit would be prescribed as to your abilities; If you are a beginner (though not likely) the kit is close enough. If you are an experienced modeler, you can deal with the few changes (a little scratchbuilding) using reference material I can point you to. If you are master modeler who wants to take the trip down the 'rabbit hole' give me a call I'll tell you all I know. References to the Trumpeter Kit(s) Franklin I cannot help you with for I am totally unfamilar with it, for I have not built nor have any knowledge of it's configuration, or accurracy. See Tracy White for those details. I hope this helps!

[keithhufnagel]

Hello One-oh-four. If you are shooting for a June 44' Hornet CV-12, I recommend the Trumpeter Kit(s) Essex CV-9. Hornet CV-12 was commissioned in Nov. 43'. She was the first Essex class ship commissioned in dazzle 33-3a and carried it until July 45'. She also retained most of her original Essex (as built)fit throughout the war, i.e. hanger level catapult, forward bridge 40mm mount, (2)aft inboard starboard 40mm mounts (not extended) , single foward flight deck mounted catapult, no blast hoods for 5" mounts, and portside offset stern 40mm mount. Minor bridge and radar suite modifications will be required depending on date. I would suggest the Gold Medal Essex 1 and 2 photo etched sets for radars, formast, galleries, catwalks, and electronics suites. These sets provide individual ship configurations as to details as well as information as common Essex Class components. It all depends on how detailed/accurate you want to get. Feel free to ask more if I can help.

[Tracy White]

One clarification on Keith's statement above; they did manage to remove SOME of the hangar deck catapult; I just don't know precisely when. The starboard side "flipper" shows up in the famous Murderer's Row shot in December 1944, but not in this February 1945 photo. According to her DANFS entry it could have been done at Ulithi either in December about the time the "Murderer's Row" shot was taken or the first week of February, but I haven't been able to go through any of the Ulithi records yet to see what they say. Odds are that they just removed the outboard flippers and kept the hangar deck gear intact until the reached stateside. I don't have any good, clear photos of this catapult but it was basically a line across the hangar from flipper to flipper with a slope up from the hangar deck to it (hangar deck was about 2-3 inches below the actual edge of the hull). I can't remember how far out from the line this is... I'll look through my photos to find the few I have.

[One-Oh-Four]

Keith & Tracy,

Thanks for the updates. Yesterday I collected the CV-9 kit. What a difference in size compared to the CVL-22 kit I'm currently working on! Didn't expect it to be that much of a difference!

Yesterday I received the Starfighter decals of Air Group 2. Since I plan on putting this Air Group on my Hornet, I'm "afraid" I'm limited to "The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot" of June 1944. Hornet had another Air Group on board during the Battle of Leyte Gulf in October 1944. So the hangar cat has to stay!

Cheers,
Erik.

[whaynes]

Hello, Walt Whanes. The major differences between CV-9 Essex and CV-10 Yorktown (except for the lack of the director tub aft of second 5" mount forward on CV-9) are listed on the previous page of this thread. As to using the "Trumpeter Kit(s)" Essex kit to build a 'Nov. 44'(actual October 44') Yorktown" the challenges would be significant. If you can find it, use the CV-10 Yorktown Kit . Though not perfect the changes to this kit would be prescribed as to your abilities; If you are a beginner (though not likely) the kit is close enough. If you are an experienced modeler, you can deal with the few changes (a little scratchbuilding) using reference material I can point you to. If you are master modeler who wants to take the trip down the 'rabbit hole' give me a call I'll tell you all I know. References to the Trumpeter Kit(s) Franklin I cannot help you with for I am totally unfamilar with it, for I have not built nor have any knowledge of it's configuration, or accurracy. See Tracy White for those details. I hope this helps!

Keith, thanks for your reply. I think I have located/purchased a CV 10. Should receive it this week. I would appreciate your help. Contact me at whaynes@lowcountry.com.
Walt Haynes

[Erik W]

Are there any simple plans or drawings of the deck of the as built CV-19 Hancock or CV-14 Ticonderoga that show the placement of the two port side deck cut outs for the quad 40mm mounts and the port gun director deck cut out? I just need to know where exactly to remove material from the 1/350 Trumpeter Hancock deck.

Thanks,
Erik

[Tracy White]

The Floating drydock plans for any of the short hulls pre-1944 should have the quad 40mm cut outs at least:
http://floatingdrydock.com/Bu.htm
Bu-CV9-2/8 USS ESSEX CV9 10/43 G/A FLIGHT DECK CV9-20, for Short Hulls, BuShips#396553
Bu-CV9-7/8 USS FRANKLIN CV13 2/44 C/A FLIGHT DECK CV13,BuShips#461980

One of my books has the layout of CV-19 I think, but I'll need to look through them to figure out which one to see if it's one of the spendy ones or not.

[Erik W]

Thanks Tracy. I'll probably skip buying plans just for this. Also, a photo directly overhead would work. I have photos, from the usual sources, that show the deck at an angle, but those are less than ideal.

While I have your ear, do you know if the airwings on the Hancock all had the angled white stripe on the tail and wing? Meaning from July 1944 to April 1945 did CAG-7, CAG-80 and then CAG-6 have the following markings? Or was this only for a certain date range?

From the sim site: http://www.maam.org/flightsim/enhance/tbm_enhance.htm


and here on the Trumpeter Hancock instructions.


Erik

[One-Oh-Four]

Hey Erik,

The Carrier Air Group markings did undergo several changes during 1944-1945. In June 1944 (Great Marianas Turkey Shoot) during the invasion of Saipan and Tinian and October (Battle of leyte Gulf) the markings were approximately as you posted in the flightsim artwork. These symbols wer ONLY painted on the vertical stabilizer. CVG-2 on Hornet used a white dot, CVG-15 on Essex had a horizontal stripe and the Air Group aboard Yorktown had a diagonal stripe. The G-symbols of geometric shapes on tail AND right upper and left lower wing were used from January 1945 (when "all" aircraft were finished in Glossy Sea Blue) till July 1945 after which the Navy changed to letter(combinations) on the vertical stabilizers (for instance "FF" for Essex CV-9).

Text from Wikipedia: "A collection of the geometric identification symbols ("G" symbols) for U.S. Navy Carrier Air Groups (CVG) in use in 1945. These symbols were ordered by COMAIRPAC on 27 January 1945 to standardize the variety of CVG markings. The symbols identified the parent carrier, not the air group (as today). A similar system for escort carriers was ordered on 2 June 1945. However, these markings proved to be hard to remember and difficult to describe on the radio. Therefore a new identification system consisting of one or two letters was ordered on 27 July 1945."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 4-1945.jpg

Hope this helps!
Cheers,
Erik.

[Tracy White]

from January 1945 (when "all" aircraft were finished in Glossy Sea Blue)

One clarification. Even though all aircraft may have been FINISHED in GSB, that does not mean that every aircraft flying was in GSB. You can see this in my CV-9 Essex Airgroup page (link is to 1945). Generally, the aircraft retained the paint they were originally finished in, so a TBF-1 in summer of '45 would have most likely still have been in tricolor.

[One-Oh-Four]

In 1944 the aircraft aboard Hancock used a horseshoe marking:

An early F6F-5 Hellcat from VF-7 (CVG 7, USS Hancock, late 1944), recognizable by the F6F-3-style windows behind the canopy combined with the lack of lower cooling flaps at the back of the engine cowing.
http://www.polish-aircraftprofile.stref ... cat_17.jpg

Avenger from VT-7:
http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/uploa ... 450660.jpg

Helldiver from Hancock:
http://bluejacket.com/usn/images/ac/p-z ... ancock.jpg

Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Erik.

[keithhufnagel]

My previous statement as to Hornet's hanger deck catapult situation comes from reference material that states specifically 'she was the only one (Essex Class)still carrying a hanger deck catapult (and unmodified bridge) in June 45'. No mention of partial elimination. This reference also shows a picture dated March 45' with starboard "flipper". However as we all know verifying picture dates is one of the great challenges of researchers everywhere. Text however is usually more scrutinized (in reputable publications), in my experience. Just my 2 cents.

[keithhufnagel]

Also I have a great head on shot of Hornet dated Dec. 45' showing the port side extension definately in tact and vertical. Sounds to me like the starboard extension (only) was removed at some time, but the rest of the catapult remained on board. Talk about being specific as to when you choose your model to portray. . . this one might take the cake. It appears that after Feb. 45' Hornet had no Starboard extension . . .only! Could it have something to do with the Typhoon damage that broke down her flight deck forward corner to 'starboard'? The plot thickens.

[Dick J]

Also I have a great head on shot of Hornet dated Dec. 45' showing the port side extension definately in tact and vertical.

You might want to recheck the date. Hornet had her forward flightdeck collapsed by a typhoon in June '45, and when coupled with the length of time since her last major overhaul, she was sent stateside. The hangar cat would never have survived a repair/refit at that late date. The "Dec '45" from your caption would have been well after the repair/refit. Check this Hunter's Point photo, (conclusion of repair) dated Sep '45. No starboard cat extension is in evidence (not unexpected). http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021269.jpg Also note the "outboard" 40MM below the island. If the cat was still in place, this would have been the only case of outboards added while the hangar cat was intact. The outboard mod was always accompanied by the 2 quads on the former port-side cat extension, visible in this Mar '46 photo of Hornet. http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021228.jpg

[Erik W]

Erik,

Thanks for the info!
Here is a photo of an F6F landing on the Hancock some time in 1944. It appears to have no tail stripe. When enlarged it appears that the only marking on the tail is the number. My hunch is this was taken around June or July. The ship looks very clean and rust free.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021916.jpg

Here are some photos taken in September 1945 that show the white U/horseshoe marking on the tail.
http://www.usshancockassociation.org/ph ... mg0055.jpg
http://www.usshancockassociation.org/ph ... mg0053.jpg
http://www.usshancockassociation.org/ph ... mg0052.jpg

I wonder when exactly the angled stripe was on the tail.

I'm trying to figure out what the airwing looked like in the Dec 44 - Jan 44 range. It seems fair to say that the horseshoe marking was what was carried at that time. And a good bet on aircraft paint schemes was F6Fs in Glossy sea Blue and TBFs and SB2Cs in the tri color.

As far as modeling goes, it may be possible to get a halfway decent looking horseshoe in 1/350 scale by using the white circles in the Starfighter Decals Hornet set and cutting the center and top out.

Erik

[Tracy White]

I suspect Keith meant December 1944?

That color shot of the Hellcat on final approach to Hancock is most likely during her shake-down (June 1944); look at how clean and un-weathered her hull is.

Dec 1944 - Jan 1945 is at the tail end of a transitional period for Hancock's air group. Her November complement was:

VB-7 SB2C-3E x 10
VF-7 F6F-3 x 13
VF-7 F6F-5 x 37
VF-7 F6F-5N x 4
VT-7 TBM-1C x 18

December 12:
VB-7 SB2C-3/SBW-3 x 18
VB-7 SB2C-3E x 7
VF-7 F6F-5 x 50
VF-7 F6F-5N x 2
VF-7 F6F-5P x 2
VT-7 TBM-1C x 18

January 16
VB-7 SB2C-3/SBW-3 x 10
VB-7 SB2C-3E x3
VBF-7 F6F-5 x 16
VF-7 F6F-5 x 41
VF-7 F6F-5N x 3
VF-7 F6F-5P x 4
VT-7 TBM-1C x13
VT-7 TBM-3 x 2

Note she goes from maybe a quarter -3 Hellcats to all -5s (Glossy Sea Blue). TBM-1Cs were tri-color. The -3 Helldivers I've seen were usually tricolor, but the -3Es I haven't been able to find anything specific on.

Page 46 of "Helldiver Units of World War Two" (Barrett Tillman) shows a SB2U-3 in October 1944 with the horseshoe in tri-color. Page 52 shows another one, same scheme, dated January 12 1945.

[Erik W]

Tracy,

Thanks! That gives me a clear picture of what the airwing looked like in the time frame I'm looking at. As always you're a wealth of knowledge.

Erik

[PStanfield]

Hello everyone. I'm relatively new here and, while I'm building the absolutely magnificent 1/350 LHD-1 Wasp kit I have begun researching my next project. I'm looking to build Essex (or another of the class) in 1/350 around the time of 1945. My favorite aircraft in the pacific was the Corsair and want to represent flight operations with this beautiful fighter. I've collected various resources (thanks to the many avid fans of the ship on this site, thank you very much!) and am now figuring out exactly what additional detail sets I will need. I don't intend on doing any scratch-building (I'm an out-of-box guy), but do intend on using various photo-etch for not only the ship above and below decks, but for the aircraft also, since the aircraft will be the primary focus. Right now I am picturing a waterline model in medium seas with an active flight line launching aircraft with one already airborne off the deck.

With this said I was wondering what would be recommended as far as kit (I was thinking Trumpeter for the kit) and etch are concerned. I know I'm going to need at least 2 or three of trumpeters wonderful Corsair sets, but I am looking for input as to what etch and/or accessories sets would be good to have.

Thank you in advance for your help.

Phil

[Tracy White]

Well, if you want to do a 350th Essex Trumpeter's really your only option.

You have a couple of options, but I'd suggest that the Franklin kit as Franklin is the easiest option. Franklin kit as CV-11 Intrepid for Max "bent wing bird" value.

You could do CV-19 in March '45 with CVG-6 aboard (36 F4U-1Ds of VBF-6 embarked) but there's a few corrections to the main deck that should be made (see my review of the [URL=http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/cv/cv-14/350-trump-tw/trumpeter-review.html]CV-14 Ticonderoga kit) if you want something closer to the original. You'd have to come up with decals for the deck markings though.

CV-9 carried F4Us....36 F4U-1Ds between VMF-124 and 213. Not a bad starting point but you'd need to remove the hangar deck catapult and add two quad 40mm mounts on a port sponson that the CV-9 kit doesn't come with.

Franklin has *2* F6F-5Ps, 15 Avengers, 15 Helldivers, and 67 F4U-1D/FG1D between VF-5 and VMFs 214 and 452.

Intrepid has the same number of Avengers, Hellcats, and Helldivers, but *73* F4U-1Ds between VF-10 and VBF-10.
Detail wise she's really close to Franklin; you'd just want to source some "11" decals if you're not going to want to do any scratchbuilding.